How is ray Leonard beter than mayweather??

[CubanGuyNYC]

Hahahaha .. people don't know their boxing.

People have been using PEDs since the days of Jack Johnson.

Sure, things have become much more sophisticated, but people have been juicing since before the turn of the century.

You don't know what anyone was doing, and you certainly were not aware that PEDs existed before BALCO. Your implications point that out.

But the fact that rumors and nothing more have become gospel for the trolls on this site means that there is no real dialogue to be had.

If there was real proof I'd condemn Mayweather in a millisecond.

There isn't. So anything passed that point is moot.

While it's true that athletes have sought a competitive edge by ingesting various things for many years, what we commonly refer to as "PEDs" have not been in use as long as you state. Please define what you mean by "PEDs". When you say, "juicing," you're using a term that implies steroid use.

The first batch of synthetic testosterone was formulated in 1935. But although the substance was compounded in the mid-thirties, it didn't immediately come into athletic use. Soviet athletes apparently started using steroids in the 40's. When the source of their dominance in strength-related sports was discovered, the U.S. followed suit.

It's debatable when athletes from other disciplines began using steroids. It's even more difficult to pin-point widespread use.

[-Kev-]

There's a difference between their resumes, but it's not exactly a bad difference.

Difference is Floyd has several good future Hall Of Famers in there like Marquez, De La Hoya, Mosley, Hatton*, Cotto*. Add the borderline hall of famers like Castillo, Corrales, Hernandez. Then just the good wins like Judah, Chavez, Gatti, Ortiz, and he's not done yet, who knows who he'll end up adding in his resume OR who he'll lose to.

Leonard has top ATG's on resume, Hearns, Duran, Hagler, one of the ATG Puerto Rican fighters Benitez. That is 4 ATG's, that's a lot. He beat other good fighters like Mayweather Sr himself.

That's the difference, Hall of Famers vs ATG's. But it's nothing bad about that. Floyd worked with what was given to him, like the Klitschko's working with the terrible HW division, it's not their fault. Floyd has added the majority of guys he was supposed to add. Sure Pacquiao and Margarito make his resume slightly better, but the fights couldn't come of for obvious reasons. He did still added Miguel Cotto in there as soon as it was possible to do so. As much as people make fun of Baldomir on his resume, it was actually a fight Floyd was being accused of ducking, and he added Baldomir in there too. Only two fights weren't made? Not bad. Floyd gave us at least 18 interesting match ups, that if they didn't happen, people would have accused him of ducking the person. Floyd has no fellow top ATG to fight aside from Pacquiao.

H2H, I mean come on, look at Leonard's style, height, and reach, other things like matching handspeed with Floyd, higher activity, moves around, great boxer. I love Floyd, but if I had to put money on it, I would have to pick Leonard.

[Priest Andretti]

This is true, and Floyd can't be blamed for that. Although, the closest to that caliber in Floyd's era - or at least the figther considered by most to be closest - is Manny Pacquiao, and Floyd hasn't fought him.

At any rate, Floyd doesn't get extra legacy points because there's a lack of all-time great fighters in his era. We know SRL beat Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns; we don't know whether Floyd could have beaten fighters of that caliber. Maybe that's unfair on Floyd, but it's just how it is. When considering legacy, fighters get credit for what they did in the ring and against whom, not what they may have been able to do in fantasy matchups.

I didn't say he should get extra legacy points but we cant act like that type of fighter existed. Because they didn't. We can judge the guy on his resume and his resume is pretty damn good one. Hes also still fighting so he has time to make it even better.

Since he retired he came back and fought JMM, Mosley, Ortiz and Cotto all back to back. Thats a hell of a run. Especially for your 4th and 5th weight class.

Say what you want about the JMM fight but watching him at 147 make Pac look silly validated Floyds win even further in my eyes. He pretty much rolled out of bed and shut out the P4P Number 2 in the world.

[onetwopunch]

The point that alot of people are missing here is that when SRL fought that ATG's they were all in there prime. Now when PBF fought that ATG's they were way passed there prime. DLH and Shane were 90s fighters, I will give him Cotto, I think he would of beaten the best Cotto at least 3 out of 5 times. JMM was way to small for him. I like PBF but he was no way as good as SRL. He won a close fight againts a past his prime DLH..A DLH from the 90's would of probably beat PBF to a pulp.

[Twako]

ray has several atgs in his resume and he beat them. floyd has... oh wait, he's still ducking pac.

[Brother Jay]

This is true, and Floyd can't be blamed for that. Although, the closest to that caliber in Floyd's era - or at least the figther considered by most to be closest - is Manny Pacquiao, and Floyd hasn't fought him.

At any rate, Floyd doesn't get extra legacy points because there's a lack of all-time great fighters in his era. We know SRL beat Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns; we don't know whether Floyd could have beaten fighters of that caliber. Maybe that's unfair on Floyd, but it's just how it is. When considering legacy, fighters get credit for what they did in the ring and against whom, not what they may have been able to do in fantasy matchups.

They said the same thing about every great.

They told Ali that he could never have beaten Joe Louis.

They told Ray Leonard that he could never have beaten Henry Armstrong.

They told Tyson that he could never have beaten Ali.

They told Roy Jones that he would have never beaten Ray Robinson.

People will say what they will, but its a fact that people pine for what they had instead of for what they've got. So it stands to reason that some value the past way more than for what it really was.

Some people have no inclination pertaining to the strides in the sports science and technology that has proven to produce better and more capable athletes. That ignorance alone allows them to pontificate about that which they know that they or anyone else cannot quantify.

But then in the same breath, you'll find those SAME exact people ridiculing subjective pound for pound debates as if they lack any less substance.

Again ... the irony.

Good post.

[onetwopunch]

What convinces me is the DLH fight, If Floyd was as great as some say he is he should of easily won that fight. DLH was past his prime and thats the biggest name on PBF's resume. Now SRL fought the ATG's on his time and beat all of them. Its as clear as black and white. And again I like PBF but to say he is as good as SRL in his prime is crazy. Just think would Floyd have beaten DLH in 1999?..

[-Kev-]

The point that alot of people are missing here is that when SRL fought that ATG's they were all in there prime. Now when PBF fought that ATG's they were way passed there prime. DLH and Shane were 90s fighters, I will give him Cotto, I think he would of beaten the best Cotto at least 3 out of 5 times. JMM was way to small for him. I like PBF but he was no way as good as SRL. He won a close fight againts a past his prime DLH..A DLH from the 90's would of probably beat PBF to a pulp.

A prime DLH doesn't beat Floyd, let alone to a pulp.

Let's not forget in 2000 DLH lost to Mosley, mainly because of Mosley's handspeed. Which was something Floyd had lots of in the year 2000. Did you forget how a past prime Pernell's defense had DLH in 97? Floyd is no Pernell, but young Floyd was untouchable in his own right, with his own defense. Did you forget how Quartey fought a close fight with DLH, and some people even thought Quartey won[i'm not one of them but it was close].

Okay then, let's not act like a 90s-early 2000s DLH was unbeatable. Better than a 2007 DLH, yes I agree; but so was Floyd. Floyd was better in the early 2000s than he was in 2006+. He did try to make the Mosley and DLH fights in 2004 but both of them turned him down. Mosley wanted 10mill, then he had a toothache and needed a "vacation". DLH understandably just didn't want to do business with Bob Arum. Sounds familiar? Vacations and not wanting to do business with Bob Arum? This is what Floyd does now, but only he's looked down on it while it was okay for Mosley and DLH to do it.

[Priest Andretti]

The point that alot of people are missing here is that when SRL fought that ATG's they were all in there prime. Now when PBF fought that ATG's they were way passed there prime. DLH and Shane were 90s fighters, I will give him Cotto, I think he would of beaten the best Cotto at least 3 out of 5 times. JMM was way to small for him. I like PBF but he was no way as good as SRL. He won a close fight againts a past his prime DLH..A DLH from the 90's would of probably beat PBF to a pulp.

What fighter did he beat to a pulp on the same level as FMJ?

[-Kev-]

What convinces me is the DLH fight, If Floyd was as great as some say he is he should of easily won that fight. DLH was past his prime and thats the biggest name on PBF's resume. Now SRL fought the ATG's on his time and beat all of them. Its as clear as black and white. And again I like PBF but to say he is as good as SRL in his prime is crazy. Just think would Floyd have beaten DLH in 1999?..

Prime vs Prime at a weight where both of them campaign in, Floyd has an easier night. Remember Floyd went up to 154, no catchweight, no fight night weight stipulations, and a lot of people agreed that he wasn't even that big of a WW to begin with.

And yes prime Floyd, 2001-2005, going back to 1999 and fighting DLH, would have won.