Comments Thread For: Photos: Vitali Klitschko Suffers Injury in Wild Ukraine Riot

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  • Banderivets
    'Ah Mr Haye'
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    #111
    The agreement that followed the negotiations between the Cossack delegates and the Muscovites was that of a simple military alliance between two independent and sovereign states. Essentially Left-Bank Ukraine or the Hetmanate became a protectorate of Muscovy. The petition by the Cossacks which was approved by the tsar can be summarized as follows: the traditional rights and privileges of the Host were to be kept intact; the tsar was not to interfere with Cossack courts; the quota of the registered Cossacks was to be raised to sixty thousand; the Ukrainian gentry was to retain its privileges; only native Ukrainians were to receive appointments in Ukraine; the hetman was to be elected freely by the Cossacks, who were to notify the tsar only after elections; all dignitaries of the Host as well as registered Cossacks were to receive a regular salary from the tsar’s exchequer; the hetman retained his authority to receive foreign envoys. However a significant exception was made by the Moscow government that limited the hetmans ability to conduct foreign policy, who was not to enter into any negations with either the sultan or the king of Poland without the authorization of the tsar. Nowhere do the Cossacks agree to give up their liberties in a way that would make them fully dependent on the Muscovite state. They pled allegiance to the Tsar directly, in return for his protection of the Cossack lands. According to V. Lypynsky, the agreement of 1954 was a chance alliance directed against Poland. This analysis coincides with the fact that both parties began negotiations after becoming aware of each others wish to eradicate a mutual enemy. For Khmelnytskyi the alliance with Muscovy was no different to his previous alliances with the Crimean Khanate,
    “All historical facts show quite clearly that Khmelnytskyi regarded this agreement as a simple treaty of protection which was quite familiar to him since he had more than once concluded similar treaties in the past, as a temporary military alliance of two states.”
    According to professor Yakovliv foreign nations and monarchs viewed the treaty as a contract alliance, as it was perceived by Khmelnytskyi himself. They continued to maintain diplomatic relations with Ukraine as a free and independent state. In 1656 Charles Gustavus, the King of Sweden, wrote to Khmelnytsky of being aware of a treaty being concluded between the Grand Duke of Muscovy and the Cossack Nation, but that “…the freedom of the peoples has remained complete and inviolable” an opinion shared also by the French. Ukraine was also recognized as a “free nation, subject to nobody” in the treaty of alliance concluded between hetman Vyhovsky and Sweden in 1657 at Korsun.

    The perception that the treaty signified the reunification of Ukraine to Russia has deep historical roots. Muscovite-Russian chronicles argued that the Kievan lands of the former Kievan Rus’ belong to the prince of Moscow who inherited the political primacy of Kiev, hence making them a part of the tsar’s patrimony. In some capacity even the Polish laid claim to Kievan lands. From this arose the assumption that Muscovite leaders were primarily lead by their desire to reunite the lands formerly subject to the Kievan Rus’ in allying with the Cossacks. On the part of the Ukrainians however there was an absence of the idea that Rus’ was once a single nation. Between 1620 and 1648 there have been numerous reports with references to Ukrainians wanting to serve the Russian Tsar. These reports have been used cited in reference to the idea of a “reunion” however detailed analysis of these documents reveals that Ukrainians simply wished to “serve” the tsar, never does the language of these reports suggest the Ukrainians wished to reunite under his leadership.


    =========

    Thats all I have on this rig,,,,need my laptop for the rest.
    Last edited by Banderivets; 07-05-2012, 06:06 PM.

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    • Medved
      Oh Mah Gawd!
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      #112
      I agree with Freedom. I love Wlad and Vitali to death but he is on the wrong side of the party on this one. Im quite happy that Russian is becoming the Official language of Ukraine. Everyone knows all the educated and rich people in Ukraine are Russians and Ukranians are just farmers.

      I will support Russian take over of Ukraine, also half of poland would be nice too since they have been selling themselves like whores to USA in hopes of some ez cash......

      My comrades of Slavic BLOOD. We are all Russian......... dont buy into these politically correct ideas created by bankers and lawyers, look at what good its doing to these ******ed countries who decided to join the EU.

      Russia / China / Brazil is the future......... when time comes,,, real SLAVS will stand up and handle our business..

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      • VirusTI
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        #113
        Originally posted by Medved
        I agree with Freedom. I love Wlad and Vitali to death but he is on the wrong side of the party on this one. Im quite happy that Russian is becoming the Official language of Ukraine. Everyone knows all the educated and rich people in Ukraine are Russians and Ukranians are just farmers.

        I will support Russian take over of Ukraine, also half of poland would be nice too since they have been selling themselves like whores to USA in hopes of some ez cash......

        My comrades of Slavic BLOOD. We are all Russian......... dont buy into these politically correct ideas created by bankers and lawyers, look at what good its doing to these ******ed countries who decided to join the EU.

        Russia / China / Brazil is the future......... when time comes,,, real SLAVS will stand up and handle our business..
        No, just no... We are not all Russian, we are all Rus'
        And why the **** would the Rus' people want Westernized Poland?
        All Ukrainians are farmers?!! Wtf you talkin' about brah? Gogol was know for his farming? Khrushchev?

        Please, don't make yourself sound so ****ing ****** believing that Anti-Ukrainian ****.

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        • JAB5239
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          #114
          Originally posted by BattlingNelson
          Vitali is the gutsiest heavyweight champion since Muhammad Ali.

          War Vitali!!!!
          While I disagree with a lot of things Klitschko, this may very well be the truth. Right or wrong, it takes balls to go against the establishment. Very admirable.

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          • Poet682006
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            #115
            After what got put in this thread a couple of posts ago I think the following should be reiterated >>>>>
            Originally posted by poet682006
            basically a rabid Russian nationalist and a Pan-Slavic Supremacist. Last time I checked not all Slavs are Russian and most of those that aren't have no desire to be forced into some greater amalgamation under Russian domination.

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            • JAB5239
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              #116
              Originally posted by Medved
              I agree with Freedom. I love Wlad and Vitali to death but he is on the wrong side of the party on this one. Im quite happy that Russian is becoming the Official language of Ukraine. Everyone knows all the educated and rich people in Ukraine are Russians and Ukranians are just farmers.

              I will support Russian take over of Ukraine, also half of poland would be nice too since they have been selling themselves like whores to USA in hopes of some ez cash......

              My comrades of Slavic BLOOD. We are all Russian......... dont buy into these politically correct ideas created by bankers and lawyers, look at what good its doing to these ******ed countries who decided to join the EU.

              Russia / China / Brazil is the future......... when time comes,,, real SLAVS will stand up and handle our business..
              Lmao!!! Lead your people Meddie, lead your people!!

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              • jimmy1569
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                #117
                Originally posted by JAB5239
                While I disagree with a lot of things Klitschko, this may very well be the truth. Right or wrong, it takes balls to go against the establishment. Very admirable.
                Perhaps now we can put the Byrd fiasco into it's proper perspective & give Vitali the benefit of the doubt. Vitali is well educated & a smart man always thinking of the bigger picture whether it relates to politics or his boxing career.


                When Chisora slapped Vitali.. you could see Vitali seething... most any other fighter lacking in discipline would have retaliated & jeapordized millions of dollars. Vitali realized rightfully that the retalaition would be in the ring.

                I see alot of haters giving him props here which is refreshing as he doesn't receive it in the ring. You guys will slowly see what I have seen all along.. it'll just take time.

                You've seen it in glimpses in the Lewis fight & Sanders fight as well but because everyone else has been dominated.. hard to see true character come through when opposition is offering the path of least resistance. Vitali is a man of immense pride & dignity... good to see him recognized for who he truly is.

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                • JAB5239
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                  #118
                  Originally posted by jimmy1569
                  Perhaps now we can put the Byrd fiasco into it's proper perspective & give Vitali the benefit of the doubt. Vitali is well educated & a smart man always thinking of the bigger picture whether it relates to politics or his boxing career.

                  No, he still gets no credit from me on that front. He quit, plain and simple. It might have been understandable had it been against some beast and he had been losing the fight, but it was soft punching Chris Byrd and he was up on all cards. But this isn't the tome or thread for this discussion so I won't reply to it again. I don't do politics, but since it relates to boxing I've taken an interest in this thread and the posts from Alex, Mikhienko and others who have obvious knowledge. We've discussed Byrd-Vitaly plenty.....lets let this thread be, ok?

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                  • joe strong
                    Average Joe
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                    #119
                    i'm very impressed with the history knowledge many of you have. i may not like the klitschkos & disagree with many of you on the boxing front but i have thoroughly enjoyed reading the well thought out posts & articulate answers being displayed here. keep up the good work. i want to 5 star this thread & i have respect for vitali for putting himself in the line of fire for his beliefs....

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                    • Poet682006
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                      #120
                      Originally posted by Ukr_Alex
                      The agreement that followed the negotiations between the Cossack delegates and the Muscovites was that of a simple military alliance between two independent and sovereign states. Essentially Left-Bank Ukraine or the Hetmanate became a protectorate of Muscovy. The petition by the Cossacks which was approved by the tsar can be summarized as follows: the traditional rights and privileges of the Host were to be kept intact; the tsar was not to interfere with Cossack courts; the quota of the registered Cossacks was to be raised to sixty thousand; the Ukrainian gentry was to retain its privileges; only native Ukrainians were to receive appointments in Ukraine; the hetman was to be elected freely by the Cossacks, who were to notify the tsar only after elections; all dignitaries of the Host as well as registered Cossacks were to receive a regular salary from the tsar’s exchequer; the hetman retained his authority to receive foreign envoys. However a significant exception was made by the Moscow government that limited the hetmans ability to conduct foreign policy, who was not to enter into any negations with either the sultan or the king of Poland without the authorization of the tsar. Nowhere do the Cossacks agree to give up their liberties in a way that would make them fully dependent on the Muscovite state. They pled allegiance to the Tsar directly, in return for his protection of the Cossack lands. According to V. Lypynsky, the agreement of 1954 was a chance alliance directed against Poland. This analysis coincides with the fact that both parties began negotiations after becoming aware of each others wish to eradicate a mutual enemy. For Khmelnytskyi the alliance with Muscovy was no different to his previous alliances with the Crimean Khanate,
                      “All historical facts show quite clearly that Khmelnytskyi regarded this agreement as a simple treaty of protection which was quite familiar to him since he had more than once concluded similar treaties in the past, as a temporary military alliance of two states.”
                      According to professor Yakovliv foreign nations and monarchs viewed the treaty as a contract alliance, as it was perceived by Khmelnytskyi himself. They continued to maintain diplomatic relations with Ukraine as a free and independent state. In 1656 Charles Gustavus, the King of Sweden, wrote to Khmelnytsky of being aware of a treaty being concluded between the Grand Duke of Muscovy and the Cossack Nation, but that “…the freedom of the peoples has remained complete and inviolable” an opinion shared also by the French. Ukraine was also recognized as a “free nation, subject to nobody” in the treaty of alliance concluded between hetman Vyhovsky and Sweden in 1657 at Korsun.

                      The perception that the treaty signified the reunification of Ukraine to Russia has deep historical roots. Muscovite-Russian chronicles argued that the Kievan lands of the former Kievan Rus’ belong to the prince of Moscow who inherited the political primacy of Kiev, hence making them a part of the tsar’s patrimony. In some capacity even the Polish laid claim to Kievan lands. From this arose the assumption that Muscovite leaders were primarily lead by their desire to reunite the lands formerly subject to the Kievan Rus’ in allying with the Cossacks. On the part of the Ukrainians however there was an absence of the idea that Rus’ was once a single nation. Between 1620 and 1648 there have been numerous reports with references to Ukrainians wanting to serve the Russian Tsar. These reports have been used cited in reference to the idea of a “reunion” however detailed analysis of these documents reveals that Ukrainians simply wished to “serve” the tsar, never does the language of these reports suggest the Ukrainians wished to reunite under his leadership.


                      =========

                      Thats all I have on this rig,,,,need my laptop for the rest.
                      Excellent scholarship! If you're able to get any more of it I'll look forward to reading it

                      Poet

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