They arent all necessarily AWESOME just because they DIDNT get a shot...

[jrosales13]

What footage of Holman Williams did you see? Was it his fight against Young Gene Buffalo?

The only footage I know that exist of Burley is his fight with Oakland Billy Smith.

I don't think there's any footage of Burley WW days. Not that are out anyways. But, I might be wrong.

Eddie Futch spoke very highly of Burley. There has to be something to that.

SRR did duck Burley, he also ducked Cocoa Kid like Dan mentioned.

I never seen anyone though mention that Burley or Williams are greater than SRR. None, I don't even think I seen a list were either guy is in the top 10 ATG.

But, their resumes and guys they beat do speak for themselves. They're ATG's and are really high up there.

The only thing that I would say is that I do believe that Burley is a tad bit overrated. In a sense that there is a belief that he's the greatest fighter from the BMR. I don't necessarily believe that. I think Williams has a strong case also.

I also believe SRR is a tad bit overrated. In the sense that there is this belief he's automatically the GOAT. I don't believe that as well. I think Langford and Greb have just as good if not better case to being called the GOAT.

[BoxingGenius27]

Floyd Mayweather is my favourite active fighter and my 5th favourite fighter of all time.

I wouldn't call myself biased toward older fighters because I rank alot of modern fighters such as Leonard, Duran, Whitaker etc etc very highly on the all time great list.

I'd say I am biased toward a handful fighters before my time for example Harold Johnson, Ezzard Charles, Ray Robinson who I believe would beat most fighter's in thier divisions and that includes greats like Hagler, Leonard, Spinks, Roy Jones Jr etc but I don't base that solely off because their older fighters, I have a bias to those fighters who were before my time solely because I really like them as fighters, frankly.

I've had plenty of arguments arguing for modern fighters. The most stand out being my view that Mayweather is argubaly THE best defensive fighter in the history of the sport. One in which I have been given endless stick for over and over again. And the lis goes on, really.

And this conversation is between a list of fighters who were all from before my time and older fighter's so I'm not sure what the relevance of your comment is.

Ummm, your post just answers the relevance of my comment to this conversation.

Secondly, I wouldn't consider fighters who had their prime in the 80's, modern fighters. I guess if you compare them to fighters from the 50's and 60's, it would, but not necessarily modern on today's standards.

I'm not knocking you for being biased torwards older fighters Dan. It's just people need to know this and realize this before they debate you. That's all.

[IronDanHamza]

Ummm, your post just answers the relevance of my comment to this conversation.

But, there are no modern fighters in this discussion.

Secondly, I wouldn't consider fighters who had their prime in the 80's, modern fighters. I guess if you compare them to fighters from the 50's and 60's, it would, but not necessarily modern on today's standards.

Oh, well I don't.

I consider the 1980's to be modern times.

I'm not knocking you for being biased torwards older fighters Dan. It's just people need to know this and realize this before they debate you. That's all.

I'm not biased toward older fighters solely because they are from an older era. I just explained that.

Yes, there are some fighters before my time I have bias toward. But, that's solely because I like them. I'm sure everyone on the planet has their biases to a handful of fighters who were before their time.

I have biases toward fighters of the last era that just occured; Mayweather, Morales, etc.

Like I said, any bias I have toward any fighter has nothing to do with what Era they are from.

[ИATAS]

i'm not going to argue any of these guys weren't awesome, I'm not a historian, but I think in some cases regarding some of these real oldschool fighters the legend, or even myth, became larger than their actual boxing skills over all these years.

[TheGreatA]

They were awesome, no question. Listen to what Eddie Futch said about them, and he saw them all. Or Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and so on. I also have gathered up as much footage as I can of these particular boxers, the "murderer's row" as some call them, and have never been left unimpressed.

The question should rather be how awesome they were. I don't rate any of them over Ray Robinson. But this doesn't mean they weren't great. Robinson just happened to be the greatest of all time, probably, with or without facing these men (who were from a different generation and heavier than him often times), atleast out of the boxers that we have a substantial amount of footage on.

Only 10 seconds of footage is out there of Holman Williams, and he looks good in that. Not enough to determine whether he's great, but I think we have to go based on his great record and high praise from contemporary fighters and reporters. The man taught Joe Louis among others.

[Reloaded]

Take Jack Johnson as another example...you read accounts of him and imagine this flawless brilliant guy...but film exists of him and, I dont know, I see Joe Frazier all over him, etc etc

This is true throughout history , if you look at at many old fight tapes of supposed legends they just dont look that good , I see this as much a part of human nature to glorify things over time , to make their deeds bigger and better as if they get better over the years like wine .

I think in any era there is trend in sport similar to the tall poppy syndrome that actually belittles the current champions and rises the good ol day champs above them , I think its more evident today because of the internet .

I think the modern days greats would destroy many of the olden day champs but history wont recognize it until they are history .

Its a mad mad world .

[RubenSonny]

Holman Williams is very possibly the most underrated fighter of all time. He was already past prime by the time he fought LaMotta and Cerdan and had already been through greater competition than most ATGs, he gave a great account of himself in both fights, no way you can argue they fought a prime version of Williams. LaMotta said Williams was as good as Robinson or something to that effect but I can't quite remember, I personally don't agree but he was still a great great fighter.

[ICEMAN JOHN SCULLY]

i'm not going to argue any of these guys weren't awesome, I'm not a historian, but I think in some cases regarding some of these real oldschool fighters the legend, or even myth, became larger than their actual boxing skills over all these years.

^^^^ Thats all im saying...

[The Gambler1981]

There are positives and negatives to every guy in history even Ray Robinson, tough to judge guys who never were able to get their shot at the brass ring~ who knows what could have been.

[NChristo]

YES, thats a very good point...A LOT goes into making fights and just because a guy doesnt fight another guy it doesnt always mean he is scared or believes he will lose...its BUSINESS first, sad to say...by the same token, Ezzard Charles, with only a handfull of gights at the time, took a one day notice fight with Burley and dropped him and beat him convincingly...so by the percpetion of that result, can we just go ahead and say that with 5 weeks advance notice that Charles beats him even worse???? The idea that SRR ducked these guys because he was afriad he would lose has REALLY been blowen out of proportion over the years...and, again, Marcel Cerdan didnt have a ton of trouble winning when he matched up...

Robinson said he ducked Burley, it's not an ''idea'', it's down on paper but it does get blown way out of proportion, no money in the fight at all and Burley wasn't ranked and past it.
LaMotta always said when questioned on Burley ''Why fight Burley when I have Zivic''
Burley was ranked in the top 5 during most of Armstrong's reign, where was his title shot ?, along with Williams and Cocoa Kid who were neglected a shot and had too fight for the Coloured Welter title as well.
Etc etc.

Cerdan didn't have a lot of trouble winning ?, John I hate too talk to you like this but where exactly are you getting this from ?, most sources I've read say a past it Williams gave Cerdan all he could handle and the Associated Press scored the fight a draw. Also there's 0 footage of the fight and you're wrong he didn't get his ''shot'' at Cerdan, it wasn't a title fight.