Is the slick defensive style inherently superior?

[thatnickuh]

..pot shotting and using your natural speed to hop out of range again doesnt make you skilled by any means.

Ahh.....yes, it does.

[SplitSecond]

Most the fighters that are considered the best of all time were actually offensive ones.

ie Robinson, Armstrong, Moore, Greb, etc

Reality is it takes a TON of skill to fight offensively and not get your ass kicked in return. so called 'brawlers' who are considered ATGs had a ridiculous amount of skill, you cant go in there with top level fighters and not be defensively sound, particularly when youre the one forcing the fight.

Not to piss of defensive minded fighters, trust me, I love me some Whitaker and Nicolino Locche...but a fair amount of them are just guys that are physically gifted and can hop out of the way of punches without much skill at all. Not by any means am I saying all defensive fighters fall under that catagory, but its just annoying when people act like just fighting defensively makes you the more skilled fighter...pot shotting and using your natural speed to hop out of range again doesnt make you skilled by any means.

this is what i say, it takes creativity to force openings
laying back waiting for the guy to throw and taking advantage is like a cheatcode in boxing and sort of cheap

[SCtrojansbaby]

The guy who throws more punches almost always wins in a close fight so its the opposite.

[Steak]

Ahh.....yes, it does.

lol.

no.

thats the most basic boxing. guys with incredible speed can get away with it at the top level, but its so easy that even beginners can do it. unless you think that playing tag takes skill?

Placing your punches, putting them together in combos, being able to throw punches and still avoid counter shots, throwing counter shots of your own, interpretting the opponents punches and using the correct blocks and head movement to avoid it...those things take skill. poking and hopping out of the way, for the most part, is something any novice can do(although obviously not everyone can do it equally as effectively).

[SplitSecond]

lol.

no.

thats the most basic boxing. guys with incredible speed can get away with it at the top level, but its so easy that even beginners can do it. unless you think that playing tag takes skill?

Placing your punches, putting them together in combos, being able to throw punches and still avoid counter shots, throwing counter shots of your own, interpretting the opponents punches and using the correct blocks and head movement to avoid it...those things take skill. poking and hopping out of the way, for the most part, is something any novice can do(although obviously not everyone can do it equally as effectively).

i know this first hand since im a speed bastard, i started off like that, lead right hand right on the kisser, and jump back and run around the ring before the other guy could do anything

now i try to be as aggressive and throw as many punches but without ending up too reckless and turning into a swarmer etc

[thatnickuh]

lol.

no.

thats the most basic boxing. guys with incredible speed can get away with it at the top level, but its so easy that even beginners can do it. unless you think that playing tag takes skill?

Placing your punches, putting them together in combos, being able to throw punches and still avoid counter shots, throwing counter shots of your own, interpretting the opponents punches and using the correct blocks and head movement to avoid it...those things take skill. poking and hopping out of the way, for the most part, is something any novice can do(although obviously not everyone can do it equally as effectively).

I don't really get your argument here because it's not an either or thing. There's nothing that says that a fighter can't be slick defensively while also possessing all of the offensive skills that you just listed. Take Whitaker for example. While he was a defensive wizard, would you really argue that he couldn't throw combos, throw while avoiding counters, and anything else that you described? Seems as if fans of offensive-minded fighters feel insecure about fighters who excel defensively and feel the need to dismiss/belittle defense as a result. Defense is a skill whether you want to recognize it or not It takes more than having incredible speed to be a great defensive fighter.

[thatnickuh]

i know this first hand since im a speed bastard, i started off like that, lead right hand right on the kisser, and jump back and run around the ring before the other guy could do anything

now i try to be as aggressive and throw as many punches but without ending up too reckless and turning into a swarmer etc

Again, defense is more than "running" and it's ignorant to describe it as such. Guys like Whitaker and Mayweather could hit and move(which isn't easy to do throughout the couse of an entire round let alone a whole fight), but they also could stand right in front of their opponents and get off without being hit in return. That takes a tremendous amount of skill and fighters who are able to do that consistently are on average superior to one's who can't.

[Steak]

I don't really get your argument here because it's not an either or thing. There's nothing that says that a fighter can't be slick defensively while also possessing all of the offensive skills that you just listed. Take Whitaker for example. While he was a defensive wizard, would you really argue that he couldn't throw combos, throw while avoiding counters, and anything else that you described? Seems as if fans of offensive-minded fighters feel insecure about fighters who excel defensively and feel the need to dismiss/belittle defense as a result. Defense is a skill whether you want to recognize it or not It takes more than having incredible speed to be a great defensive fighter.

I already went over Whitaker in this thread, and specified that not all defensive fighters are low skill pot shotters.

lol.

no.

thats the most basic boxing. guys with incredible speed can get away with it at the top level, but its so easy that even beginners can do it. unless you think that playing tag takes skill?

Placing your punches, putting them together in combos, being able to throw punches and still avoid counter shots, throwing counter shots of your own, interpretting the opponents punches and using the correct blocks and head movement to avoid it...those things take skill. poking and hopping out of the way, for the most part, is something any novice can do(although obviously not everyone can do it equally as effectively).

Most the fighters that are considered the best of all time were actually offensive ones.

ie Robinson, Armstrong, Moore, Greb, etc

Reality is it takes a TON of skill to fight offensively and not get your ass kicked in return. so called 'brawlers' who are considered ATGs had a ridiculous amount of skill, you cant go in there with top level fighters and not be defensively sound, particularly when youre the one forcing the fight.

Not to piss of defensive minded fighters, trust me, I love me some Whitaker and Nicolino Locche...but a fair amount of them are just guys that are physically gifted and can hop out of the way of punches without much skill at all. Not by any means am I saying all defensive fighters fall under that catagory, but its just annoying when people act like just fighting defensively makes you the more skilled fighter...pot shotting and using your natural speed to hop out of range again doesnt make you skilled by any means.

Whitaker had a very complete offensive arsenal. He could fight well on the outside, inside, in combos, in counter punching....

dont get 'no power' and 'no offense' mixed up. There are multiple times in his career that Whitaker scored some pretty nasty knockouts, ie Hurtado, Lomeli and Nazario, and landed a huge amount of punches on quality opponents, ie Haugen and Azumah Nelson.

[thatnickuh]

I already went over Whitaker in this thread, and specified that not all defensive fighters are low skill pot shotters.

Ok, you gave respect to Whitaker. You're still trying to dismiss defense to being all about speed. Who are these low skilled pot-shotters that you speak of? I was assuming that the thread was referring to effective slick defensive styled fighters. It takes a tremendous amount of skill to be able to pot-shot effectively for an entire round let alone a 12 round fight.

[Spray_resistant]

Ok, you gave respect to Whitaker. You're still trying to dismiss defense to being all about speed. Who are these low skilled pot-shotters that you speak of? I was assuming that the thread was referring to effective slick defensive styled fighters. It takes a tremendous amount of skill to be able to pot-shot effectively for an entire round let alone a 12 round fight.

My point is that skill or what is perceived as such means nothing at all if it does not translate to a win.