John Ruiz Discussion Thread (no flames)

[oldgringo]

LOL...what? Who needs balls when you got skills. Come on, man, you cannot be serious. KO of Holyfield means something? Holyfield didn't even take that much of a beating before he succumbed. A prime Holyfield would bust Toney the **** up. I could just as easily say Toney doesn't have the will to step away from the buffet table to actually be able to use his feet now and then. He stays on the inside because he is lazy. Roy would not have a close fight with Jirov like Toney did (or should have if not for crap scoring, Manny and co. believed he desperately needed a knockdown to ensure the win).



I can't fathom Roy getting outboxed by Nunn for 10 rounds. But, if Toney could KO him, Roy could as well with that same perfectly placed punch.

But anywho, we've been through this debate before and I know it will go nowhere. lol...I'll just go ahead and leave. I know better now I think.

I still like James Toney, for the record.

You are proving my point. Roy would NEVER sit around in the pocket and swing away with Holy or Jirov or Nunn. It's not his style thus he'd never land enough, hard enough on those guys to knock them out.

I've always thought that (as much as I hate the bastard) Michael Nunn would have given any middleweight throughout history a very tough fight. He had the all-around skills to give Jones a very tough fight and possibly beat him. I don't see him boxing Roys ears off like he did Toney for 8 1/2 rounds...but it would be a close fight in reality.

Of course prime Holy would bust up Toney...but then again that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Jones wouldn't have stopped the version of Holy that Toney stopped, because he didn't have the power or style necessary to do it.

The Jirov fight was definitely close...but again a LOT of people are overlooking clean punching and defense these days as far as scoring goes. I had Toney up 6-4-1 going into the 12th, or 7-4 if you don't believe in ties. Theres absolutely NO way Jones would have beat up that form of Jirov that bad. Toney pretty much ruined Jirov...who was the last top level guy that Jones ruined?

This debate wasn't about balls/skill. It was about who busted up Ruiz more and who has more power.

[Guest]

Actually, supe.....it takes boxing insight to see what a farce he is.

This is my least favourite style of debating on this forum. Saying to someone "oh, you don't know boxing then" or similar does NOT prove your point.

If you think it does, you obviously don't know boxing...

[Guest]

Bozo pics please...

I scored both fights 9-3. Toney clearly busted Ruiz up...and it's foolish to think that Roy carried more power at HW than Toney does now.

As I was the one who brought Roy up, can I state that I never suggested Roy had more power at that weight?

All I personally said was that Roy humiliated Ruiz (by comprehensively outboxing him in one of the most one-sided title fights I've ever seen) whereas Toney had it more competitive (by outhustling and hurting John, but never seriously troubling him and taking shots in return... and Ruiz's nose was bust up with Roy, too).



I'm agreeing with Super_Lightweight? What's going on? Roy was dynamite that night though.

[Guest]

Actually, I don't know that Roy didn't have more power at the weight.

Regardless of Toney "sitting on the pocket", Roy was fast and accurate then, plus his punches were harder to see coming. All factors that are likely to configure in a KO victory.

[KidBlackie]

I'm not a fan of Arum, but he summed up Ruiz pretty well in ********* today. He said if the rules were enforced Ruiz would be DQed for holding, and that even if his style is legit, nobody wants to see him fight. You'll notice that King has kept him away from big sluggers so we won't see any Tua rematches!

[Guest]

Okay, I rewatched this fight, including rewatching round 5 twice as I started to fall asleep. (Diego, next time I say I'm going to rewatch a Ruiz fight, do the decent thing and stop me, okay?)

I had it 117-110 Toney. The 7th round KD was bogus, but then it looked like Ruiz was lucky to get away with falling over in the 8th, so it evened out.

Again, while John started to take some shots in the last quarter of the fight, this was still the most competitive heavyweight fight that I've seen Toney in. So what does that tell us? Ruiz is better than a shot Holyfield and a fringe contender like Dominick Guinn? (Still haven't seen the Booker fight).

The rounds I gave to Ruiz were clearly rounds three and six, and I also had him edging two.

However, many of the rounds were extremely close, with both landing... I had 4 & 10 marked as close rounds, with 1,5 and the last round also close, if not competitive. (By this, I mean that the last round saw an exhausted Ruiz prevent an also pretty tired Toney from landing anything substantial... while Toney had clearly bossed him by this stage, scoring it as a round meant it could have gone either way).

So? Ruiz definitely wins two, I got him as three. Then there are five rounds which were close enough to almost be even rounds. Now if Ruiz was more popular to attract the judge's sympathy and the crowd weren't roaring their approval every time Toney managed so much as a jab, the fight could have been tipped towards "Ruiz retains on draw". Toney knocked him around in a couple of the rounds, but it was nowhere near the masterclass he put on against Holyfield or Guinn... IMO.

[TuPrincipe]

Okay, I rewatched this fight, including rewatching round 5 twice as I started to fall asleep. (Diego, next time I say I'm going to rewatch a Ruiz fight, do the decent thing and stop me, okay?)

I had it 117-110 Toney. The 7th round KD was bogus, but then it looked like Ruiz was lucky to get away with falling over in the 8th, so it evened out.

Again, while John started to take some shots in the last quarter of the fight, this was still the most competitive heavyweight fight that I've seen Toney in. So what does that tell us? Ruiz is better than a shot Holyfield and a fringe contender like Dominick Guinn? (Still haven't seen the Booker fight).

The rounds I gave to Ruiz were clearly rounds three and six, and I also had him edging two.

However, many of the rounds were extremely close, with both landing... I had 4 & 10 marked as close rounds, with 1,5 and the last round also close, if not competitive. (By this, I mean that the last round saw an exhausted Ruiz prevent an also pretty tired Toney from landing anything substantial... while Toney had clearly bossed him by this stage, scoring it as a round meant it could have gone either way).

So? Ruiz definitely wins two, I got him as three. Then there are five rounds which were close enough to almost be even rounds. Now if Ruiz was more popular to attract the judge's sympathy and the crowd weren't roaring their approval every time Toney managed so much as a jab, the fight could have been tipped towards "Ruiz retains on draw". Toney knocked him around in a couple of the rounds, but it was nowhere near the masterclass he put on against Holyfield or Guinn... IMO.

Those are some very fair statements. I was not at all impressed with Toney in the Ruiz fight. I felt he won, but the HBO commentary were very biased. I believe they only had Ruiz winning 1 or 2 rounds which is utter horse ****. Ruiz won 2 rounds clearly, and a couple rounds that he could of won, could of been called even, but he lost them for whatever reason. Ruiz changed his style for that fight and I believe the outcome would of been a much harder, closer fighter if Ruiz kept his clinching tactics in check.

I'm still not impressed with Toney. He's a viable opponent but calling him "the man" at heavy is just ludicrious.

[LuKahnLi]

How does one give respect to an outright disgrace ?

Criticism, scorn, & outright hatred are what Ruiz & Stoney are worthy of, from fight fans.

Pretty much.

This is the only rational response to such a disgrace to the sport.

[Guest]

Those are some very fair statements. I was not at all impressed with Toney in the Ruiz fight. I felt he won, but the HBO commentary were very biased. I believe they only had Ruiz winning 1 or 2 rounds which is utter horse ****. Ruiz won 2 rounds clearly, and a couple rounds that he could of won, could of been called even, but he lost them for whatever reason. Ruiz changed his style for that fight and I believe the outcome would of been a much harder, closer fighter if Ruiz kept his clinching tactics in check.

I'm still not impressed with Toney. He's a viable opponent but calling him "the man" at heavy is just ludicrious.

I think what also makes the difference is that Ruiz LOOKS bad when he throws a shot. Toney looks impressive and technically adept, Ruiz doesn't. Yet it doesn't matter. Judges are scoring punches landed and their effect. I might even have given John the first round where two lefts put Toney into the ropes.

[jabsRstiff]

This is my least favourite style of debating on this forum. Saying to someone "oh, you don't know boxing then" or similar does NOT prove your point.

If you think it does, you obviously don't know boxing...

Anorak.....

If you had read the post from Super Lightweight that I was responding to.....you'd see what I said was a direct (& similar) response to something he said.

If you want to pick a fight with me.....just be more direct please. I will be more than happy to oblige you.