Why do people say that margarito is shot?

[Light_Speed]

Why do people say that margarito is shot but yet all of his best attributes were still clearly shown in the pac fight?


heart/warrior mentality- check

chin- check

stamina- check

punch output- check

heart/warrior mentality- check

chin- not the same since the Mosley loss (Pac was wobbling him with single punches)

stamina- check

punch output- diminished

[SCEN3RY]

Will you fight Margarito?
Roach: we're brave,but not that brave.

After getting ko'd by Mosley, beating some guy in Mexico.
Roach: we've seen his last 2 fights.

When Margarito stopped Cotto, they wouldn't fight him. After he gets beheaded, suspended, beat a bum, he's good enough to face? Or bad enough to face? Tell me which 1.

that's true, but there's a few things missing from this timeline. When roach said, "we're not that brave" Pac had just beaten a "weight drained" ODH, that's not a real welterweight, certainly not one viable enough to gauge what Manny Pacquiao would perform like against a guy that just stopped the #1 welter in Miguel Cotto.
At that point, Pacquiao was no more than a lightweight that really hadn't done much at welter other than accept a massive payday...hence they went down to 140 afterward. Can you blame Roach for being hesitant? And if we're going to put so much stock in his words, he also said, 'Pacquiao wanted that fight after beating De La Hoya, but I didn't think we were ready.'

and on side note, regarding the thread, he's past his prime. With the beatings, he's well past his prime. But I've always taken the word "shot" more literally than others on this website...I'll wait for his fight vs Cotto before I misuse the term.

[edgarg]

If Margarito had been convicted of cheating he'd have been suspended for life. But the Commisiion specifically said that they were NOT accusing him of knowingly committing fraud, but that he should have been watching what the trainer was doing.

It wa obviously-to me anyway- an accident, asd described by the trainer, who took all responsibility. I care nothing about Margarito, nor indeed any fighter, except in their competence and good behaviour, but a problem and situation, always interests me. And especially the foolishness and illogicality of the posters.

If you were the trainer, and wanted to cheat, would it not be FAR easier, and completely UNNOTICEABLE, to sprinkle Plaster of Paris on a NEW pad, rather than a used one which would be instantly noticed???

The substances found on the pad were 2 elements also found in Plaster of Paris. Result...Oh...instant condemnation amongst the Boxing "intelligensia". The report WENT On to say that these substances were also found in many other products, and particularly used in COSMETICS.

To ME, immediately springs the thought that it was an absorbent powder, frequently used by boxers.

As for sprinkling Plaster of Paris powder on bandages, later to be damped by sweat, so as to harden, this myth was completely DEBUNKED by an experiment made in the early 1950's by Nat Fleischer, the Publisher (Mr. Boxing) and owner of RING Magazine, as well as a collection of experts he called together to make the experiment.

The REASON for this was that, falling on hard times, Jack Dempsey's former manager Jack (Doc) Kearns had written a book in which, to arouse interest, he'd said that he dipped Dempseys bandages into a bucket of water and then copiously sprinkled Plaster of Paris on them, thus implicating Dempsey. This was to explain the rumours always around that Dempsey's gloves were loaded when he fought and annihilated Jess Willard. Over the years many stories had emerged about pieces of iron found on the canvas after the fight, and there must by 50 or more households in America where they proudly display some hunk of metal as the authentic one used in Dempsey's gloves for that fight. Dempsey has always vehemently denied it.

To settle it once and for all, Fleisher et al followed the Kearns story exactly, and, after the Plaster of Paris had dried hard, the boxer chosen for the experiment, punched a heavy bag for a minute of so. When the gloves were taken off it was discovered that the plaster had not stood up to even the desultory few punches used, and had disintegrated into dust.

This is a true story and published in RING Magazine. I do not have the exact date, but I'm sure it can be found. I wish EVERYBODY would read this, but prejudice, malice and pure ******ity are far stronger than truth.

I feel sorry for Margarito though..............

My own only criticism of the WHOLE story of the fight is that it was reported that Dempsey (or Kearns?) had backed himself heavily to KO Willard in the 1st rd. When this was apparantly achieved, Dempsey immediately left the ring, only to be hurridly called back because the bell had rung at the count of 8 and the round had been over. So he returned and the fight eventually ended in the 3rd. Now I have NEVR heard of any fight where, as soon as the bell ends the rd, and ESPECIALLY in a World Heavyweight Title fight, the winner would abruptly leave the ring, (and have to be called back to continue). The ring would have been immediately swarming with cornermen, officials, announcers, newsmen and so forth ALL wanting to speak to the new champ who would be standing there, shaking hands and receiving congratulations by the score.

It is THIS story, which has never been questioned, which is all the more MYTHICAL to me.

Just for the heck of it I checked it out on the Internet, and much to my surprise I found that although there was an investigation into the Kearns story, as told to Boxing Illustrated in Jan. 1964 by Jack Kearns,(which copy I have) and was disproven with 5 punches by Cleveland Williams on a bag. Nat Fleischer came into it as being in Dempsey's dressing room and examining his wraps before the fight. The gloves were put on in the ring and weighed 5 oz.

I looked a little further and found that the Doc Kearns wrote his book, from which all this information is supposed to have come, dictating to Oscar Fraley (a well known boxing writer) in mid 1966.......... and looking further found that Kearns himself had died in July 1963.

However, I still believe that I have a RING Magazine copy (now of uncertain date) in which Nat Fleischer describes the whole experiment they did, as I have recounted it. One day i will dig it out, and, perhaps be proven wrong. But only a little wrong (on date and Magazine).

Not for the first time, I must admit.

[SCEN3RY]

Weak thread. How long have we been watching boxing that we still can't tell whether or not a guy is shot or sevrely weathered? Or, is this a case of building Margarito up because Pacquiao dominated and seriously injured him?

There's a reason a young guy like Paul Williams is on his way out, and fighters like Juan Diaz, Fernando Vargas, Ricky Hatton, Meldrick Taylor and Chris Arreola to some extent, all began to slide at a relatively young age. There's a reason an iron-chinned Librado Andrade, Marg himself, and Carlos Baldomir finally had their chins cracked.

Years of taking excessive punishment. Years of shaky defense and a propensity to go to war, a willingness to block punches with your face. It damages you and it accelerates your expiration.

A strong argument could be made that Margarito's last hurrah was his win over Cotto in 2008. He absorbed tremendous punishment that night, he walked through the fire in one of the ATG displays of will and toughness. Since then? He got demolished and stopped by Shane Mosley in his very next fight, suspended for two years, came back at 154 and looked average in a win over a journeyman before coming down to 150 for Pacquiao and getting his face beat in. Let's not forget either- he had trouble getting down to 147 three years ago. He returned at 154 for a reason, and moving him down to 150 was a calculated move. Not that I believe the outcome would've been any different at 154, but, as a logical thinker, I have to acknowledge the fact that a catchweight existed.

Manny Pacquiao is a great fighter, arguably the best of his generation and an ATG. That doesn't mean he should be able to piss on you and tell you it's raining. The Margarito fight was irrelevant, and not because everyone's a "*****" or Manny isn't an amazing fighter. It was irrelevant because it was irrelevant. Period. I understand the fun in arguing for your guy and taking sides in debate, but do we not, as men, get tired of all this crying, whining and hero-worship? Your guy fought a meaningless fight- wasn't the first and won't be the last time that has happened in boxing. Pacquiao gets all the credit and respect he deserves as it is, you don't have to fight so hard to defend the bulll**** too.

I can respect this opinion.

[Alibata]

What fighter do you know who gets beat by Antonio Margarito, gets a draw against Kermit Cintron, loses to Paul Williams who we now know sucks...etc. etc. and all of a sudden at 35 years old becomes "GREAT".

Name 1 single fighter in the history of boxing besides Steroidgio Martinez who all of a sudden became "GREAT" at 35 years old.

Not fair using a *****/floyd excuse against them

[SCEN3RY]

If Margarito had been convicted of cheating he'd have been suspended for life. But the Commisiion specifically said that they were NOT accusing him of knowingly committing fraud, but that he should have been watching what the trainer was doing.

It wa obviously-to me anyway- an accident, asd described by the trainer, who took all responsibility. I care nothing about Margarito, nor indeed any fighter, except in their competence and good behaviour, but a problem and situation, always interests me. And especially the foolishness and illogicality of the posters.

If you were the trainer, and wanted to cheat, would it not be FAR easier, and completely UNNOTICEABLE, to sprinkle Plaster of Paris on a NEW pad, rather than a used one which would be instantly noticed???

The substances found on the pad were 2 elements also found in Plaster of Paris. Result...Oh...instant condemnation amongst the Boxing "intelligensia". The report WENT On to say that these substances were also found in many other products, and particularly used in COSMETICS.

To ME, immediately springs the thought that it was an absorbent powder, frequently used by boxers.

As for sprinkling Plaster of Paris powder on bandages, later to be damped by sweat, so as to harden, this myth was completely DEBUNKED by an experiment made in the early 1950's by Nat Fleischer, the Publisher (Mr. Boxing) and owner of RING Magazine, as well as a collection of experts he called together to make the experiment.

The REASON for this was that, falling on hard times, Jack Dempsey's former manager Jack (Doc) Kearns had written a book in which, to arouse interest, he'd said that he dipped Dempseys bandages into a bucket of water and then copiously sprinkled Plaster of Paris on them, thus implicating Dempsey. This was to explain the rumours always around that Dempsey's gloves were loaded when he fought and annihilated Jess Willard. Over the years many stories had emerged about pieces of iron found on the canvas after the fight, and there must by 50 or more households in America where they proudly display some hunk of metal as the authentic one used in Dempsey's gloves for that fight. Dempsey has always vehemently denied it.

To settle it once and for all, Fleisher et al followed the Kearns story exactly, and, after the Plaster of Paris had dried hard, the boxer chosen for the experiment, punched a heavy bag for a minute of so. When the gloves were taken off it was discovered that the plaster had not stood up to even the desultory few punches used, and had disintegrated into dust.

This is a true story and published in RING Magazine. I do not have the exact date, but I'm sure it can be found. I wish EVERYBODY would read this, but prejudice, malice and pure ******ity are far stronger than truth.

I feel sorry for Margarito though..............

My own only criticism of the WHOLE story of the fight is that it was reported that Dempsey (or Kearns?) had backed himself heavily to KO Willard in the 1st rd. When this was apparantly achieved, Dempsey immediately left the ring, only to be hurridly called back because the bell had rung at the count of 8 and the round had been over. So he returned and the fight eventually ended in the 3rd. Now I have NEVR heard of any fight where, as soon as the bell ends the rd, and ESPECIALLY in a World Heavyweight Title fight, the winner would abruptly leave the ring, (and have to be called back to continue). The ring would have been immediately swarming with cornermen, officials, announcers, newsmen and so forth ALL wanting to speak to the new champ who would be standing there, shaking hands and receiving congratulations by the score.

It is THIS story, which has never been questioned, which is all the more MYTHICAL to me.

I'll see if I can find that article from the RING, but Dempsey leaving the ring immediately after assuming he had won, is quite puzzling.

[AllEyesOpen]

Honestly, Marg didn't look shot against Pac, he just couldn't walk Pac down because Pac's footspeed/footwork was amazing that night. Marg could never get set to throw his punches cause Pac kept on unloading and then turning Marg. It could very easily be said that after the brutal beating he took from Pac that he is indeed shot, but without seeing him fight again that's just speculation.

[$tate of Mind]

Because that's what happens in boxing....when you start getting slower, hit more, hit harder and start getting knocked out, it means you're done. That's how boxing works. When they look terrible and start losing it's not because they're still in their prime. It's because they are not.

I've always found it quite fascinating that so many Pac fans think losing fights means you're even greater than before. Boxing is a simple sport. When you start to lose and look like ****e, compared to previous years etc, it's because you're getting worse, not better.

When you lose really, really badly like never before, or start losing and looking ****, while your skills dwindle it means you're done. It's that simple.

Margarito started to struggle to make weight, he had just won his career defining fight a year or so previous after losing previously and starting to slow down, felt he had achieved his dues finally, then he goes and looks shocking in a brutal KO loss, comes back and looks like shot against a journeyman, then gets the bollocks beaten off him again. That's being shot.

When Morales lost five out of six fights in a row after being a P4P great for a decade nearly and nearly never losing once, started to struggle with weight, got beaten embarrassingly bad etc etc, it's not because he's getting better. When Hatton gets knocked out in his biggest fight, comes back and looks like **** and nearly gets knocked out again against a journeyman after having a cast iron chin, it's not because he's regaining his prime. Oscar wasn't better at 147 and the drip didn't make him better.

Excellent post Benny as usual.

[edgarg]

pac should take the test. so should Steroidgio Martinez.

like floyd said, fighters don't just become great all of a sudden. name 1 fighter who instantly became GREAT at 35 years old like Steroidgio Martinez did.

i'll wait...

psyche.

ain't waiting cuz you know damn well you can't name one.

Well I can. Take Archie Moore for instance, Around age 35 he had beaten harold Johnson twice, and even a year or more later had ost tohim and beaten him again. THEN beat Joey Maxim for the Title THEN went on to beat very respectable heavyweights, including Nino Valdez. etc.etc. And this was a time when a 35 year old fighter was well ground down into palooka-dom. Moore had some of his nowst noted fights LONG after the age of 35.

I'm sure there are a few more around but I don't want the trouble of looking for them.

[edgarg]

Well I can. Take Archie Moore for instance, Around age 35 he had beaten harold Johnson twice, and even a year or more later had ost tohim and beaten him again. THEN beat Joey Maxim for the Title THEN went on to beat very respectable heavyweights, including Nino Valdez. etc.etc. And this was a time when a 35 year old fighter was well ground down into palooka-dom. Moore had some of his nowst noted fights LONG after the age of 35.

I'm sure there are a few more around but I don't want the trouble of looking for them.

Sugar Ray Robinson retired at age 31-2 returned about age 35 and went on to some of his most memorable fights, althought admittedly, considerably on the downgrade. He had 10 World title fights, winning 4 losing 5 and drawing one (which was really an easy win)
and then had about another 50 fights before retiring at age 45.