Bernard Hopkins: Not an ATG?

[Run]

He beat Glen Johnson by TKO or KO!!!!!!
cmon now!

5:59



The Jamaican could have gone on perhaps, but was getting beaten badly.



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[deanrw]

He might beat Hagler. I am not saying he won't. But, he is not doing it easy as that poster claims. Fact is no MW in the history of the sport is having an easy time with a prime Hagler.

The problem is that I think people see Hagler as this come forward face first brawler and that is it. But, Hagler had more dimensions to his game.

And, the Spinks comment...... Well that is just ridiculous.

Finally!!! People only remember the older slower Hagler. People just cannot remember how much of a solid all around game he brought to the table.

Nobody could switch his stance as effortlessly as Marvin. He could box, or come forward and beat you down. He could do it all.

Hopkins could give any middleweight in history a tough night though. IMO he belongs with the elite. It is just hard to measure how great he was because of the era he was in.

[frankenfrank]

I am reading 'The Last Great Fight' by Joe Layden. In a passage concerning Bruce Trampler (manager of Bill Douglas - father of Tyson conquerer, Buster Douglas), the subject of Bernard Hopkins is raised.

'In the winter of 2005 Trampler got to thinking of Douglas one night while watching forty-year-old Bernard Hopkins, a revered and seemingly ageless middleweight, lose for the second time to a lightning-quick youngster named Jermain Taylor. A few days later Trampler dashed off an e-mail to Peltz, his friend and business associate, wondering whether he, too, felt that Hopkins, far from being a future Hall of Famer, was one of the sport's most overrated practioners. How many of the beastly middleweights who called Peltz's stable home in the 1970s would have dismantled Hopkins with little trouble?

Peltz responded quickly with a list of ten names...which included Bill Douglas...who ''would have bounced right hands off Bernard Hopkins all night long''''

So is Trampler correct? Was Hopkins just a stand-out of a weak era? Does his mental fortitude only prevail in the 90s and 00s? If so, which fighters do you think would have beaten him?

Hopkins is far from ATG if you consider he saved himself from being stopped and losing decisions with his everlasting fouls.
Still he lost twice to a chinny Jermain Taylor whom was later exposed as such.
Hopkins also lost his debut to a less than Journeyman just because he fought someone his own size.
His achievements are indeed a result of one of the two weakest eras in MW history , not sure which was the weakest.

These fighters would have beaten him at 160-168 under fair refereeing :
Sam Langford
James Toney
Marvin Hagler
Ray Robinson
Ray Leonard
Thomas Hearns
Ronald Wright (Hopkins used headbutts to put him in a survival mode)
Jermain Taylor (did it twice)
Robbie Sims
Chris Eubank
Mike McCallum
Sumbu Kalambay
Herol Graham
Reggie Johnson

and there are more.

I will not even start such a list for the LHW division .

[Heru]

He barely lost a round during his record middleweight title defenses, barely lost a round in his 30s...

He pretty much shutout and then knocked out an undefeated Hall of Famer to unify 3 titles and get the true Ring/lineal Championship defending it numerous times before becoming undisputed Middleweight Champion by beating another HOF at a catchweight that drained him.

Then while in his 40s, he moved up 2 weight classes to shutout a top 10 P4P fighter and Ring/lineal 175 lb. Champion (Tarver), then beat a top 10 P4P fighter (Winky), lost a razor thin split decision to the #2-3 P4P, shutout a Top 5 P4P fighter 17 years his junior, and definitely has a shot at becoming the true Lt. Heavyweight Champion at 45, again at a double digit disadvantage.

That's not an ATG? Him nor anyone else can not give me a list of 50 fighters that belong in front of The Executioner. And even though ATG isn't based on H2H, I'd put money on prime Hopkins beating any middleweight ever. The old man would not go easy, that's for damn sure.

[BennyST]

Under the modern judging system and in their primes, I also think he would have beaten Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon, Julian Jackson, anyone. Because for whatever style they brought to him, he'd just change his accordingly.

If they tried to box him....he'd close the gap and brawl them, if they were aggressive, he'd just cycle them and fight cautious.

Even Jackson I don't think would stun him, and Hagler + Monzon's aggressiveness wouldn't pay off that well.

He had trouble with Roy in the early days because of his athleticism. That being stated if they fought each other 5 times in their primes I still think he would knock Roy out 2/5 of the times perhaps.

I think it's possible that he beats Hagler, but I don't think he could beat Monzon. Monzon was just weird. He could box you to death or brawl like all hell. Most people underrate Hagler badly now though, cause most guys have only seen his major fights which came after his prime and peak years.

Monzon though: Funny fighter and quite similar to Hopkins and Hagler in that they all beat their biggest names who had come up lower divisions, while also beating all the top guys and some very underrated contenders of their day.

However, I think both Hagler and Monzon have slightly better competition at the top end than Hopkins. That's not to say that means they would win, but just in terms of resume. Possibly the most underrated of all the guys they all fought though, is one Rodrigo Valdez. That guy was a ****ing monster and din any other time, he would have dominated the division. Well ****, apart from Monzon he did!

The only guy to KO Bad Bennie...and what a KO! Man , he was a great fighter.

Yeah, I don't think Hopkins could beat Monzon.

Edit: Oh, and Hopkins is definitely an ATG.

[Doctor_Tenma]

He barely lost a round during his record middleweight title defenses, barely lost a round in his 30s...

He pretty much shutout and then knocked out an undefeated Hall of Famer to unify 3 titles and get the true Ring/lineal Championship defending it numerous times before becoming undisputed Middleweight Champion by beating another HOF at a catchweight that drained him.

Then while in his 40s, he moved up 2 weight classes to shutout a top 10 P4P fighter and Ring/lineal 175 lb. Champion (Tarver), then beat a top 10 P4P fighter (Winky), lost a razor thin split decision to the #2-3 P4P, shutout a Top 5 P4P fighter 17 years his junior, and definitely has a shot at becoming the true Lt. Heavyweight Champion at 45, again at a double digit disadvantage.

That's not an ATG? Him nor anyone else can not give me a list of 50 fighters that belong in front of The Executioner. And even though ATG isn't based on H2H, I'd put money on prime Hopkins beating any middleweight ever. The old man would not go easy, that's for damn sure.

Great post!

[bojangles1987]

That is a ludicrous article. Hopkins is clearly and without question an ATG.

[BennyST]

He's a street fighter, which is why I appreciate his style in the ring.

The bold isn't 100% correct. In his younger days he would have been more entertaining according to your standards. Perhaps you should watch some of his Pre-Trinidad affairs because he didn't shy away from anything.

He was rugged and fought in the trenches.

I don't know....Maybe. I consider him more of a pure boxer than nearly anyone today though....He's a true boxing artist of the old sense, meaning you could brawl and get rough or you could box and move, you could employ whatever was needed to make you win, you had great defense, you could make guys do what you wanted them to.

He really does fight like the guys from the 50's, 60's and 70's. You just don;t see those kind of skills anymore apart from in a few rare guys. But, to me boxing is a fighting sport and the sweet science is about everything. People think too much that the "sweet science' is more about moving and boxing, like your Ray Leonard against Hagler etc. but I actually equate the sweet science more with the style that Hagler uses. There is a genuine science and thought to what he does and how he goes about it.

He's the closest fighter I know of today that uses all the skills that the guys from forty and more years ago used. They had great inside skill, better than any inside fighter today, even though they were considered 'boxers' and they could get rough, tough and brawl like they were in an alley/pub brawl.

You look at some old school guys who are considered classic boxers, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Joe Gans, Benny Leonard etc and you think they will just move and box, but when you study them you realise why guys like Toney and Hopkins call themselves 'old school'. It's because they fight with the same overall style and skills of those guys. They were brilliant boxers and yet, just like Hop and Toney, they put to shame the inside skills of all the 'inside' fighters of today. The skill they used inside took more skill than to box and move on the outside and it's just not seen anymore apart from in the rare few like Mayweather/Hop/Toney.

That's what I think of when the term sweet science comes up. Not a mover, but a guy that has as much skill inside as he does outside. Can brawl, box, move, slug, get rough....everything. He's a pure fighter.

[#1Assassin]

hopkins's resume speaks for itself. but to truly understand how great he is u have to understand the sweet science. hopkins is one of the greatest bcuz of his ability to adapt to anything, including himself. there are only a few fighters who managed to rule based on physical attributes in their youth, then as they age turn around and win fights with smarts and skills instead and maintaining their spot on top of the sport.

but to see, understand and appreciate that u have to understand the sweet science and know boxing history. hopkins is a legend, the best of his era. pac and floyd could move ahead of him though. but considering the competition pac and floyd are fighting compared to that of hopkins at age 45 i doubt it will ever happen.

[JDezi4]

He has the smarts and ability to beat anyone, so NO....