Comments Thread For: Vitali Klitschko Compares Wladimir With Muhammad Ali

[RayLeonard82]

Question? Who has Wladimer ever fought that was mobile on there feet and could box in circles using in and out movement? NOBODY

So you dont know what would have happened. Ali got knocked down at times because he got careless against competetion he felt was weak. Ali would take Wladimer serious.

Ali from the Listen fight to 1967 boxes circles around Wladimer

Who has Wladimer fought? He's fighting in a era where the divison is very weak. Kinda like when Roy Jones was at 175 before Tarver, Glen Johnson, Hopkins, Chad Dawson.

[edgarg]

Wladimir Klitschko is a great fighter and he proved it by clearly being the most dominant heavyweight of his era but comparing him to Ali is taking it a little too far.

When you compare the two, it's clear that both of them were great in their respective eras but what seperates Ali from Wladimir is their level of competition.

Ali's level of competition was clearly much harder and he simply beat better fighters than Wlad. I'm not discrediting Wladimir because he has beat some good fighters and he has no control of how good the fighters are in his division but when it comes down to it, they simply don't match up to the fighters Ali faced and beat.

BUT seeing that we see Klitschko fighting all the time, and read and see exactly what he is CAPABLE of, one MUST put (in his mind) nthe picture of Klitschko, the pre Sanders Klitschko too, of fightinging any and all of Ali's opponents.

Who amongst them would last, say, motre than 8 rounds? And not be hammered in the preceding rds?

[edgarg]

Nope just a bunch of controversial wins by biased judges.

Did you know one judge in the Foreman fight had Foreman winning 0 rounds. Watch that fight and tell me how Foreman won 0 rounds. Maybe Foreman wouldnt have punched himself out if he thought he could get a fair decision.

Wlad losing to Purrity is a joke, a young guy, 25 lbs lighter than he is today fighting his 12th match in 12 months. Wow, he gassed...get over it.

Wlad losing to Brewster, he got revenge for, Ali lost to Frazier and Norton clearly and decisively the first time. Also wlad was most likely drugged.

Wlad lost to Sanders...tons of fighters have fights like this, the great ones are the ones who come back.

I'm surprised at Battler, usually the most fair and factual by far of us all. To fine it down a little further, Klitschko's 25th fight in his first 24 months of pro boxing was Purrity, whom he bashed all over the ring, and only succumbed at theend of the 11th to being withdrawn by his corner. He weighed. I think 225, and was about 21-22.

He's have won a 10 rd'er with EASE. As for Brewster too many shady little problems there for it to be a legit win. Brewster should have been stopped by ref the previous rd. having been KD's and taken huge punishment.

As for Sanders....just LOOK....please LOOK at the slo mo and you WILL SEE that Sanders's HEAD cracked Klitschko's jaw at the same time as his fist, almost, and this about 2-3 times. No need to look further for the cause of the stoppage...........a STOPPAGE not a KO.

All in all, that was THEN....this is NOW, and he is unbeatable.....until someone comes along and shows us he isn't.

As for his opposition being SOooo poor....it is only against HIM, normally thery are pretty goog fighters against each other. HE is the catalysing ingredient which makes ALL his opposition NG.

[edgarg]

I thought you were talking about the third Norton fight. But in the third Frazier fight he didn't clinch effectively, whereas his clinching was a major part of his game plan in the second fight. He seemed to me to be standing on the ropes and taking vicious body punches as an intentional tactic, in the mistaken belief that Frazier would punch himself out like Foreman did - and that's what I meant by ******. (He also tried using the rope-a-dope inappropriately in the first Spinks fight). I'm sure he still had the legs to turn his man and get off the ropes, or to clinch, if he'd wanted to. As for conserving energy, nothing saps the energy like taking the sort of body shots he took on the ropes in the third fight.

And you haven't addressed the issue that he never adjusted to Norton's strategy of negating his jab.



Audley Harrison was also an Olympic Gold medallist. The pro game is completely different from the amateur game. Pacquiao was no longer a novice when he lost to Singsurat in his fourth year as a pro, and was even less of one when he drew with Sanchez. Wlad was nothing much without Steward, but under Steward's guidance he has improved out of all recognition. Some fighters need a great trainer to be great, and Wlad and Pacquiao are two examples.

As for Steward being in Wlad's corner in the first Brewster fight, the improvement under Steward has been gradual but steady, just as Lewis's was. But the improvement has accelerated in the last two years.

I have always believed that Klitschko was a BETTER fighter BEFORE Steward. His attacking arsenal was ENORMOUS...see the Mercer fight. Steward taught him to CLINCH, bear down on his opponent, and a better distance judgement, all a la Lewis. Tried to make him a second Lewis, Well he's better than Lewis, because he can do everything that Lewis could, and had much more.

[Die Antwoord]

I have always believed that Klitschko was a BETTER fighter BEFORE Steward. His attacking arsenal was ENORMOUS...see the Mercer fight. Steward taught him to CLINCH, bear down on his opponent, and a better distance judgement, all a la Lewis. Tried to make him a second Lewis, Well he's better than Lewis, because he can do everything that Lewis could, and had much more.

It depends on your definition of "better." If better is looking more impressive, koing guys fast, showing more skill, then yes he was better before Steward.

Steward isnt about that, Steward is about winning fights. Wlad bought into it hook line and sinker. Wlad now may not dish it out like he used to, but he rarely is in any trouble at all. One thing I do notice though is Wlad doesnt seem to be having as much fun as before. Before he'd go out, knock some guys head off and he would be smiling, now its more just business I think.

[Steak]

Wait...when Ali was prime...wasnt that when he won a controversial decision against 180 pound Doug Jones who almost knocked him out of the ring. Also wasnt that when he had to cheat to beat LHW Henry Cooper and take illegal and banned substances in the ring which we have video evidence of him doing? Thats the prime youre talking about? Get out of here troll.

actually, that was not Ali's prime. most histories will agree that Ali was just entering his prime when he was forced out of boxing.

Incidently, Ali was younger in the Cooper and Jones fights(21) than Wladimir was when Wlad was TKOed by Ross Purrity.(22) Most Klitschko fans dont hold that Purrity loss against Wladimir(I dont): Dont have double standards.

not to mention that Jones and Cooper were both top ten when they fought Ali. Purrity was never even close to being top 10.

Wow, Ali beat Liston? Really? He definitely didnt do anything the 2nd fight. We all know that. Either Liston took a dive or Walcott was a terrible ref who allowed Ali to stand above the knocked down fighter. In their first fight the match was scored a draw before Liston pulled out with a hurt shoulder, most likely another mob induced decision.

Patterson...wow, that dude would be sparked by Wlad in 1 round.

you can clearly see the punch land, and Liston's back muscles tense up as he feels the effect of the blow. you have to be an amazing actor to pretend something like that, especially IMMEDIATELY after the punch lands. This is very slow motion.

While I have no facts to suggest that Patterson would last longer than a round, I suggest you watch some more of his fights...hes very underrated. arguably the fastest Heavyweight of all time. much like Tyson, but more emphasis on speed and agility and less on power.

Patterson was a little small for Heavyweight, but in size hes actualyl quite similiar to Chris Byrd, and prime Byrd still went the distance with Wladimir, although he got his ass kicked pretty bad.

Foreman, ok, Ali waited for the dumb Foreman to punch himself out. Vitali threw more punches every round against kingpin and sosnowski than Foreman threw in any round against Ali. Oh and Vitali is 39. So if Vitali fought in 120 degree weather, and Ali was allowed to hang on loose ropes and Vitali knew the judges would never let him win (one judge had Foreman winning 0 rounds....0)...then maybe Ali could compete with him. I still dont think so though.

Do people even watch this fight? Although Ali did have to 'weather the storm' for a lot of the fight, he was actualyl landing plenty of very short quick straight punches in the middle of Foreman's barrage. I can tell you right now that its WAY more tiring to throw punches against a live opponent, as opposed to a mediocre fighter(Sosnowski) or someone who doesnt even attempt to put up an offense(Kevin Johnson).

Vitali's stamina is underrated though.

Giving Ali credit for 2 frazier wins...you might as well give Berbick credit for beating Ali. Fact is Frazier was past it. During that span he won 5 of his last 10 fights. Ali's camp literally has said, "we chose Frazier a 3rd time because we could see he was so far past it." And if you want to see clinching watch Ali against Frazier...holy **** if Wlad or Vitali could do that to opponents theyd never lose, he literally just pushed Joe's head down the entire fight. It was a joke. Not to mention if Frazier ever got into the ring with Wlad he would turn and run...you think Foreman hit hard...Wlad would kill him.

Foreman's success against Frazier was largely due to his uppercuts...Wladimir VERY rarely throws those, and when he does generally theyre not all powerful death shots either.

Frazier was still in the top 3 after the Foreman losses, after beating Joe Bugner and then Jerry Quarry. He definitely was not THAT past it, but probably shopworn. still a damn good fighter, thats for sure.

winning 5 of his last 10 fights is such a totally meaningless stat, its staggering to think you brought it up. You do realize these losses were against ONLY Ali and Foreman, right? and that his other draw came 5 years after his retirement?

Ok you give Ali credit for 2 Norton wins...youre an idiots. Norton won 2 fights easy and the 2nd fight was a draw. 2 norton wins...dear god. Ali was hyped do you not get that?

the Norton fights were controversial, no doubt. but Norton was an excellent fighter in his own right. he very well may have deserved a win over Larry Holmes near Holmes' prime.

And dont underestimate Holmes: the man went on to beat Ray Mercer more impressively than a near prime Lennox Lewis did, and at a surprising 43 years old too.

Zora Folley? Zora Folley was 54 years old when Ali fought him and he had been KO'ed more savagely in his prime by doug jones...who many said beat Ali and who Ali ducked a rematch from.

Zora Folley was rated #2 in the world at the time, and hadnt lost in 11 fights against fighters like Bonavena, Bob Foster, and Karl Mildenberger. not Ali's best win, but its about the same as Wladimir's win over Chagaev.

Chuvalo..................Kingpin>Chuvalo thats all you need to know. Funny thing when Ali gave Chuvalo the title shot, Chuvalo had lost 2 months before to some POS club fighter. Thats what we are dealing with here.

Kevin Johnson struggled with an old man version of Terry Smith, who was a journeyman even in his prime. Smith would have beaten him had he been a year or two younger.
Theres no way that Johnson is better than Chuvalo. Chuvalo wasnt the greatest fighter ever, but he had his strengths: an amazing chin, hard puncher, and very strong will. not the best boxer, but he could get the job done.

Shavers...Shavers was trash and he probably beat Ali. Shavers had KO losses to fighters with losing records in his prime. The dude was horrendously bad.

the only thing trash about Shavers was his abysmal chin. he only lost to one bad fighter prior to the Ali fight, and that was 3 years before. He was coming off of a KO win over the #7 rated Howard Smith as well.

Wladimir himself lost to a mediocre fighter in Ross Purrity: doesnt automatically make him a horrible fighter.

Seriously I pick Chagaev to beat everyone on that list of accomplishments but Liston (who Ali never really beat) and Foreman (who Ali won basically by a technicality and refused to rematch).

I cant believe you actually just made this statement. how many Chagaev fights have you actualyl seen? heres some fun facts:

-Chagaev struggled with John Ruiz, and couldnt beat him more dominantly than James Toney or Roy Jones(former middleweights) did. You cant deny this.
-Chagaev looked bad against a 41 year old Matt Skelton, who had lost to Danny Williams and was then went on to be KOed/TKOed 3 times, to mediocre fighters
-Prior to his fight with Wladimir, Chagaev struggled with Carl Drummond, a mediocre fighter who has lost his next two bouts decisively.

Chagaev is definitely not that great a fighter.


As a person I like Wladimir more than Ali, but I simply cannot deny Ali's accomplishments.

[Die Antwoord]

actually, that was not Ali's prime. most histories will agree that Ali was just entering his prime when he was forced out of boxing.

Incidently, Ali was younger in the Cooper and Jones fights(21) than Wladimir was when Wlad was TKOed by Ross Purrity.(22) Most Klitschko fans dont hold that Purrity loss against Wladimir(I dont): Dont have double standards.

not to mention that Jones and Cooper were both top ten when they fought Ali. Purrity was never even close to being top 10.


you can clearly see the punch land, and Liston's back muscles tense up as he feels the effect of the blow. you have to be an amazing actor to pretend something like that, especially IMMEDIATELY after the punch lands. This is very slow motion.

While I have no facts to suggest that Patterson would last longer than a round, I suggest you watch some more of his fights...hes very underrated. arguably the fastest Heavyweight of all time. much like Tyson, but more emphasis on speed and agility and less on power.

Patterson was a little small for Heavyweight, but in size hes actualyl quite similiar to Chris Byrd, and prime Byrd still went the distance with Wladimir, although he got his ass kicked pretty bad.
Do people even watch this fight? Although Ali did have to 'weather the storm' for a lot of the fight, he was actualyl landing plenty of very short quick straight punches in the middle of Foreman's barrage. I can tell you right now that its WAY more tiring to throw punches against a live opponent, as opposed to a mediocre fighter(Sosnowski) or someone who doesnt even attempt to put up an offense(Kevin Johnson).

Vitali's stamina is underrated though.
Foreman's success against Frazier was largely due to his uppercuts...Wladimir VERY rarely throws those, and when he does generally theyre not all powerful death shots either.

Frazier was still in the top 3 after the Foreman losses, after beating Joe Bugner and then Jerry Quarry. He definitely was not THAT past it, but probably shopworn. still a damn good fighter, thats for sure.

winning 5 of his last 10 fights is such a totally meaningless stat, its staggering to think you brought it up. You do realize these losses were against ONLY Ali and Foreman, right? and that his other draw came 5 years after his retirement?

the Norton fights were controversial, no doubt. but Norton was an excellent fighter in his own right. he very well may have deserved a win over Larry Holmes near Holmes' prime.

And dont underestimate Holmes: the man went on to beat Ray Mercer more impressively than a near prime Lennox Lewis did, and at a surprising 43 years old too.
Zora Folley was rated #2 in the world at the time, and hadnt lost in 11 fights against fighters like Bonavena, Bob Foster, and Karl Mildenberger. not Ali's best win, but its about the same as Wladimir's win over Chagaev.
Kevin Johnson struggled with an old man version of Terry Smith, who was a journeyman even in his prime. Smith would have beaten him had he been a year or two younger.
Theres no way that Johnson is better than Chuvalo. Chuvalo wasnt the greatest fighter ever, but he had his strengths: an amazing chin, hard puncher, and very strong will. not the best boxer, but he could get the job done.

the only thing trash about Shavers was his abysmal chin. he only lost to one bad fighter prior to the Ali fight, and that was 3 years before. He was coming off of a KO win over the #7 rated Howard Smith as well.

Wladimir himself lost to a mediocre fighter in Ross Purrity: doesnt automatically make him a horrible fighter.
I cant believe you actually just made this statement. how many Chagaev fights have you actualyl seen? heres some fun facts:

-Chagaev struggled with John Ruiz, and couldnt beat him more dominantly than James Toney or Roy Jones(former middleweights) did. You cant deny this.
-Chagaev looked bad against a 41 year old Matt Skelton, who had lost to Danny Williams and was then went on to be KOed/TKOed 3 times, to mediocre fighters
-Prior to his fight with Wladimir, Chagaev struggled with Carl Drummond, a mediocre fighter who has lost his next two bouts decisively.

Chagaev is definitely not that great a fighter.


As a person I like Wladimir more than Ali, but I simply cannot deny Ali's accomplishments.

We pretty much are in agreement over a lot of things, however, we just see them from different angles. All in all this is the most knowledgeable post I have read from an Alistan.

Still I disagree with triangle theory. Every fighter is different and matchups make fights. I mean Ali lost to Norton, Garcia KO'ed Norton, Im not going to argue Garcia is better than Ali or anything like that. I just disagree with triangle theory.

I also disagree with comparing fighters based solely on age, every fighter matures differently and Wlad vs. Purrity was just a perfect storm. I dont count that as much of a loss, but my problem with Ali fans is they consider his prime so close to his loss. I dont think Wlad hit his prime till 2008 ish. Physically I dont think he could be any better than he is right around now.

And Im just quoting Ali's team when I say Frazier was way past it for their third fight. During that doc I watched a while back his members said thats whe he was chosen. Ali clearly knew he was past it after the Foreman fight and Wepner incident and went searching for weak opponents, or guys with major flaws to fight and continue boxing.

[Steak]

We pretty much are in agreement over a lot of things, however, we just see them from different angles. All in all this is the most knowledgeable post I have read from an Alistan.

Still I disagree with triangle theory. Every fighter is different and matchups make fights. I mean Ali lost to Norton, Garcia KO'ed Norton, Im not going to argue Garcia is better than Ali or anything like that. I just disagree with triangle theory.

Im not necessarily using triangle theory: Because I agree wholeheartedly that styles make fights. I just like to put the quality of the win into perspective often. Norton being able to push Holmes to his limit was a hell of a showing, and Holmes at 43 being able to beat an undefeated Mercer is really impressive, especially considering Mercer was probably top 5 after back to back KO wins against Tommy Morrison and #7 rated Francisco Damiani.

I also disagree with comparing fighters based solely on age, every fighter matures differently and Wlad vs. Purrity was just a perfect storm. I dont count that as much of a loss, but my problem with Ali fans is they consider his prime so close to his loss. I dont think Wlad hit his prime till 2008 ish. Physically I dont think he could be any better than he is right around now.

right, I dont count Wladimir's very early loss against him either: hes risen above it.

Personally, Ive always thought Ali's prime was about around the Zora Folley fight, right before he was forced into his hiatus. that was about 4 years after the Doug Jones and Henry Cooper fights.

And Im just quoting Ali's team when I say Frazier was way past it for their third fight. During that doc I watched a while back his members said thats whe he was chosen. Ali clearly knew he was past it after the Foreman fight and Wepner incident and went searching for weak opponents, or guys with major flaws to fight and continue boxing.

Frazier wasnt prime in the third fight, nah, but like I said he was still top 3 and coming off wins over Quarry and Ellis. You couldnt really ask him to fight anyone much better, and Ali wasnt quite in his prime either at that point.

[Dave Rado]

Frazier wasnt prime in the third fight, nah, but like I said he was still top 3 and coming off wins over Quarry and Ellis. You couldnt really ask him to fight anyone much better, and Ali wasnt quite in his prime either at that point.

Ali was probably further from his prime than Frazier was, certainly at least as far from it. As you said, Ali's prime was just before his enforced four year retirement. He never again had the legs he'd had then, and his legs used to be his primary defence. Plus he didn't take Frazier nearly seriously enough in the third fight, and he badly under-trained. Plus his game plan was all wrong for the third fight, again, probably because of the fact that he'd under-estimated Frazier at that point.

And Frazier's style was one that even a prime Ali would have struggled with.

Frazier was undoubtedly the toughest opponent Ali could have had at that point, due to the style match-up - although unfortunately for Ali, he didn't realise that coming into the fight.

[Kulle]

i would have loved to see ali taunt these guys....he would have called them BIG, DUMB, AND SLOW amongst other things!!! and made them look like amatures in the ring!!!

Ali calling either of the Klitchkos dumb? That would be the day.