In reality, theres no better fighter than Cotto at 154

[Siggy]

like i said, people may argue that martinez is a more skilled fighter than cotto but still, cotto is a more well rounded fighter. cotto can box, brawl and counter. not to mention that cotto has a better resume than the 3 names you mentioned

cotto's resume is only rivaled by manny's. still think sergio beats him.
sergio doesnt brawl becuz he doesnt have to, doesnt make him any less well rounded

[bojangles1987]

I think Sergio definitely beats him, and Paul probably does.

[check hook]

yep, hes better than martinez and way better than paul williams. people may argue that martinez is the more skilled fighter, granting but not accepting, cotto is still better overall and cotto's resume ****s on martinez

with that said, i dont think miguel should continue his campaign at 154. he may lose his fights in that division only because of the size advantage his opponents will have over him

Congratulations Miguel!

Cong**** indeed........now that the pleasantries have been dispensed with.....


are you ****ing mad????

what about Margarito......? He better than Cotto at 54??

Martinez, Williams............??

[intoccabile]

heres the top10 fighters at 154

http://www.ringtv.com/ratings/jr_middleweight/

except martinez, whos possibly the more skilled fighter than cotto in that division? and of all those names, cotto has the best resume

Warning.. this is a pretty long and in depth post.

Paul williams, Martinez, and Dizzy are better than cotto man, sorry. And it has nothing to do with size either.

Paul Williams isn't the most skilled guy on the planet anyway, many people have more "skill" than he does, but he does what he does very well and he takes the soul out of people with his volume. Skill doesn't matter here, whoever he beats he will ALWAYS beat because that trait will never change.

Dizzy is more skilled than cotto at what he does, I'm sorry.
As is Sergio, much more skilled. Cotto is better at his pressure/power game than martinez is, but ok.. He doesn't move better than martinez (although he does move more "textbook") he doesn't fight off the backfoot better either and no he does NOT counter better.

Most of martinez's punches ARE counters (jabbing over peoples jabs, left straighting under and over incoming punches) and unlike cotto who likes to admire his work, therefore whenever he is moving, he resets himself before throwing, martinez can throw WHILE moving, which makes him more effective whilst moving.

Martinez get his a lot less than cotto as well, who has been plagued to get hit too often with punches not because of that peek a boo/ear muff stance that is begging for uppercuts, but because he admires his work too often, strolls around the ring, and has to "reset" himself before every exchange (why margi/pacman..guys who threw a lot of punches were so successful..he never got a chance to "reset"). Martinez on the other hand, i won't credit his defense but I'll just say he has a clinch.. which cotto doesn't.. that's just 1 reason right there he doesn't get hit as much.

The list goes on man. Cotto IMO would go threw hell with James Kirkland (remember ricardo torrez?, yes, i realize that was 140) who is the same height as cotto. He'd also go through hell with Angulo who you can argue will win only on size, but hey, not all fighters are SKILLED.. as long as they do what they do and do it well.

Margi is one of the lest skilled fighters when it comes to well roundedness and fundamentals but he is also one of the most successful. If you want to argue that he cheats, fine, then i'll point my argument toward Paul Williams. Being the most skilled doesn't make you the most effective. Zab Judah is the perfect arguement. Arguably one of if not the most skilled fighter of this Era....but what does that mean if you don't have the other things needed to go with the talent?... what a waste.

Back to the argument though, i think you're just a blind cotto fan. No offense. I like the guy, but you're overrating his "skill" because you see that he DOES do many things.. he can move foward or retreat, but you're not seeing at all the flaws he possesses when doing them.

When moving foward - He tenses up in the back, which creates the ear muffs. and continuously resets himself before punching, which is what got him tagged repeatedly against pacman. Keeps resetting instead of defending.

When moving backward/bouncing - he looked nice against Yuri with his bounce, but the difference between his and yuris was quite clear. Cotto dropped his hands everytime he bounced on his toes while yuri kept HIS up. Cotto when fighting on his toes against margi was tagged so much because he doesn't protect himself whilst bouncing, until he RESETS all over again, and ear muffs. This is the reason the accurate punching clottey was able to get so much work again versus miguel and (despite injury) ended up trapped in his shell completely against Margarito (1600 punches thrown) and Pacman (1200). All the pausing, posing.

He admires his work - It's not a problem against guys like yuri, but it is against many guys at 154 and it has nothing to do with skill or size that makes it a problem for him. Here is the deal.

THE FIGHTS AT 154.

Paint this scenario in your head, you will immediately understand cottos BIGGEST flaw. When he blocks a punch, for example, a Yuri right hand with right glove, he HOLDS that right glove there a few more seconds and subtly walks backwards or around before getting back into his stance. Or, when he lands a punch, say a right hand, he holds his right hand next to his head afterward and takes a small pause or steps back and bounces a few times (like he did many times after landing jabs). THIS is called admiring his work and POSING. Cotto does too much POSING nowdays, it's what gets you hit.

VERSUS MARTINEZ - Against a mobile martinez cotto will have to learn how to punch without having to constantly get set, otherwise he will get tagged and clinched often. Martinez will move, cotto will follow, probably bounce on occasion, and martinez being able to punch WHILE moving will tag cotto as cotto tries to set himself (the way manny won many exchanges, cause cottos posing). martinez also has an awkwardness about him.. because he doesn't set himself to throw it's hard to time his offense, so many times cotto may block/slip something, and admire his defense and get hit in the process.

An example of him admiring his work when landing something big.


Getting hit as a result. This entire video points out the obvious flaws i've described. Dropping his hands when bouncing and getting hit because of it. Whenever he defends while moving, notice he has to stop completely and earmuff all over again, hit as a result. Pay close attention to anytime he opens up. 00:30secs for example, when he flurries, and then drops his hands and takes the walk around the ring to admire his work before margi jumps on him again.



Against PAUL WILLIAMS - outside of learning to clinch or knocking paul clean out he doesn't win this for obvious reasons.. Paul has decent pop when he plants his feet, his volume is the best in the sport. I don't care how big paul is, if he were small, he'd still pose a serious threat to cotto simply because he throws too many punches and cotto has those terrible tendencies.

The paul williams outcome also counts for the following fighters at 154 -
Angulo (not a lot of punchers, but he will be infront of cotto all day looking to ****, i actually like cotto here, angulo isn't exactly a margarito.. his output is very low). James Kirkland (absolutely relentless)

AGAINST DIZZY - This may be a size problem, I'll admit. However sergi does box well. We've seen cotto get heavily discouraged in the past when his opponent doesn't pressure, but takes the center of the ring from him. Which i believe Dizzy will do. Tight guard, decent blocking abilities, excellent jab (longer than cottos) and IMO wins in the center of the ring. However, i have yet to see dizzy against someone who might get inside and work him in there.. so I have to rule out that outcome. Giving cotto the benefit of the doubt and assuming he pressures dizzy with body blows (very unlikely).

As far as cottos resume. Who cares? He was billed up, had a great fan base being a puerto rican power house, and was marketable. He got the big fights that other people in his stable (clottey for example) didn't. That's how boxing works. It's not like they just hand you big fights because you're skilled, no, it doesn't work that way. If that were the case, Winky would have had so many big fights before and after shane.

[Mr. Philadel]

I think hes a better boxer than them. Cotto is an underrated boxer. But them dudes at 154 are much bigger, tougher chins, and hit harder. Paul Williams is similar to Marg, except he throws more and faster.. Pressure fighters are Cottos kryptonite.

this is called the HARD TRUTH ....nicely done my dude!!

[JM1]

For anyone who doesnt know they have...

#1 - Martinez
#2 - Leapfrog Cintron
#3 - Ryan Rhodes
#4 - Alfredo Angulo
#5 - Sechew Powell
#6 - Yuri Foreman
#7 - Joachim Alcine
#8 - Vanes Martirosyan
#9 - Sergei Dzinziruk
#10 - Saul Alvarez

Of those lot I feel that only Martinez and Dzinziruk could beat him. Basically because both of them are bigger taller rangy fighters who (unlike Foreman) have the power to keep him off of them. Angulo would be a very interesting fight but I think Cotto beats him because he has more strings to his bow than Angulo has. He can box and move very simular to the way Cintron did in beating Angulo. Aside from those 3 and maybe Vanes, I see Miguel beating all of those guys....

I think the guys who would give him the most power are in this order...

#1 Paul Williams
#2 Sergio Martinez
#3 Sergiy Dzinziruk
#4 Antonio Margarito

I would love to see at least 2 of those fights before Miguel retires...

bro, you didnt answer the question. my concern is not about who "may" beat cotto. again, aside from martinez, who is possibly more skilled than cotto out of those 10 names in the rankings? and dont you agree that miguel has a better resume than those 10 names given?

[JM1]

Cong**** indeed........now that the pleasantries have been dispensed with.....


are you ****ing mad????

what about Margarito......? He better than Cotto at 54??

Martinez, Williams............??

havent you read my posts?

skill wise and resume wise, whos better? cotto or margarito?

ive said it multiply times that sergio being the more skilled fighter is debatable but i think cotto is more well rounded for the reasons that ive already provided and of course, cotto has a better resume. agree?

and williams cant be compared to cotto in terms of skill and resume but it also doesnt mean that williams cant beat him. again, not because the fighter is bigger, means theyre better. get it?

[JM1]

Warning.. this is a pretty long and in depth post.

Paul williams, Martinez, and Dizzy are better than cotto man, sorry. And it has nothing to do with size either.

Paul Williams isn't the most skilled guy on the planet anyway, many people have more "skill" than he does, but he does what he does very well and he takes the soul out of people with his volume. Skill doesn't matter here, whoever he beats he will ALWAYS beat because that trait will never change.

Dizzy is more skilled than cotto at what he does, I'm sorry.
As is Sergio, much more skilled. Cotto is better at his pressure/power game than martinez is, but ok.. He doesn't move better than martinez (although he does move more "textbook") he doesn't fight off the backfoot better either and no he does NOT counter better.

Most of martinez's punches ARE counters (jabbing over peoples jabs, left straighting under and over incoming punches) and unlike cotto who likes to admire his work, therefore whenever he is moving, he resets himself before throwing, martinez can throw WHILE moving, which makes him more effective whilst moving.

Martinez get his a lot less than cotto as well, who has been plagued to get hit too often with punches not because of that peek a boo/ear muff stance that is begging for uppercuts, but because he admires his work too often, strolls around the ring, and has to "reset" himself before every exchange (why margi/pacman..guys who threw a lot of punches were so successful..he never got a chance to "reset"). Martinez on the other hand, i won't credit his defense but I'll just say he has a clinch.. which cotto doesn't.. that's just 1 reason right there he doesn't get hit as much.

The list goes on man. Cotto IMO would go threw hell with James Kirkland (remember ricardo torrez?, yes, i realize that was 140) who is the same height as cotto. He'd also go through hell with Angulo who you can argue will win only on size, but hey, not all fighters are SKILLED.. as long as they do what they do and do it well.

Margi is one of the lest skilled fighters when it comes to well roundedness and fundamentals but he is also one of the most successful. If you want to argue that he cheats, fine, then i'll point my argument toward Paul Williams. Being the most skilled doesn't make you the most effective. Zab Judah is the perfect arguement. Arguably one of if not the most skilled fighter of this Era....but what does that mean if you don't have the other things needed to go with the talent?... what a waste.

Back to the argument though, i think you're just a blind cotto fan. No offense. I like the guy, but you're overrating his "skill" because you see that he DOES do many things.. he can move foward or retreat, but you're not seeing at all the flaws he possesses when doing them.

When moving foward - He tenses up in the back, which creates the ear muffs. and continuously resets himself before punching, which is what got him tagged repeatedly against pacman. Keeps resetting instead of defending.

When moving backward/bouncing - he looked nice against Yuri with his bounce, but the difference between his and yuris was quite clear. Cotto dropped his hands everytime he bounced on his toes while yuri kept HIS up. Cotto when fighting on his toes against margi was tagged so much because he doesn't protect himself whilst bouncing, until he RESETS all over again, and ear muffs. This is the reason the accurate punching clottey was able to get so much work again versus miguel and (despite injury) ended up trapped in his shell completely against Margarito (1600 punches thrown) and Pacman (1200). All the pausing, posing.

He admires his work - It's not a problem against guys like yuri, but it is against many guys at 154 and it has nothing to do with skill or size that makes it a problem for him. Here is the deal.

THE FIGHTS AT 154.

Paint this scenario in your head, you will immediately understand cottos BIGGEST flaw. When he blocks a punch, for example, a Yuri right hand with right glove, he HOLDS that right glove there a few more seconds and subtly walks backwards or around before getting back into his stance. Or, when he lands a punch, say a right hand, he holds his right hand next to his head afterward and takes a small pause or steps back and bounces a few times (like he did many times after landing jabs). THIS is called admiring his work and POSING. Cotto does too much POSING nowdays, it's what gets you hit.

VERSUS MARTINEZ - Against a mobile martinez cotto will have to learn how to punch without having to constantly get set, otherwise he will get tagged and clinched often. Martinez will move, cotto will follow, probably bounce on occasion, and martinez being able to punch WHILE moving will tag cotto as cotto tries to set himself (the way manny won many exchanges, cause cottos posing). martinez also has an awkwardness about him.. because he doesn't set himself to throw it's hard to time his offense, so many times cotto may block/slip something, and admire his defense and get hit in the process.

An example of him admiring his work when landing something big.


Getting hit as a result. This entire video points out the obvious flaws i've described. Dropping his hands when bouncing and getting hit because of it. Whenever he defends while moving, notice he has to stop completely and earmuff all over again, hit as a result. Pay close attention to anytime he opens up. 00:30secs for example, when he flurries, and then drops his hands and takes the walk around the ring to admire his work before margi jumps on him again.



Against PAUL WILLIAMS - outside of learning to clinch or knocking paul clean out he doesn't win this for obvious reasons.. Paul has decent pop when he plants his feet, his volume is the best in the sport. I don't care how big paul is, if he were small, he'd still pose a serious threat to cotto simply because he throws too many punches and cotto has those terrible tendencies.

The paul williams outcome also counts for the following fighters at 154 -
Angulo (not a lot of punchers, but he will be infront of cotto all day looking to ****, i actually like cotto here, angulo isn't exactly a margarito.. his output is very low). James Kirkland (absolutely relentless)

AGAINST DIZZY - This may be a size problem, I'll admit. However sergi does box well. We've seen cotto get heavily discouraged in the past when his opponent doesn't pressure, but takes the center of the ring from him. Which i believe Dizzy will do. Tight guard, decent blocking abilities, excellent jab (longer than cottos) and IMO wins in the center of the ring. However, i have yet to see dizzy against someone who might get inside and work him in there.. so I have to rule out that outcome. Giving cotto the benefit of the doubt and assuming he pressures dizzy with body blows (very unlikely).

As far as cottos resume. Who cares? He was billed up, had a great fan base being a puerto rican power house, and was marketable. He got the big fights that other people in his stable (clottey for example) didn't. That's how boxing works. It's not like they just hand you big fights because you're skilled, no, it doesn't work that way. If that were the case, Winky would have had so many big fights before and after shane.

i dont have enough time to read everything since im about to go, ill try to reply to this later. thanks for the post

[Dick Buffman]

Dumb mother****er..

Choke on balut and die.

[JK1700]

bro, you didnt answer the question. my concern is not about who "may" beat cotto. again, aside from martinez, who is possibly more skilled than cotto out of those 10 names in the rankings? and dont you agree that miguel has a better resume than those 10 names given?

Out of those 10....Cotto is proberbly more skilled than all of them except Martinez and Dzinziruk. He has a better resume than both of those guys too. But like I said before both of them are bigger natural 154lb fighters which I believe would give him alot of trouble. Aside from those 2, Cotto beats everyone on that list.