Rocky Marciano Statue To Be Built By The WBC

[edgarg]

Just thought I'd have a look at Ross's record. It turned out to be a lot worse than I thought. Rocky was his 17th fight, all of which he'd won-15 by KO- a real killer. He weighed in as a lt.heavy, Rocky heavier by about 10 lbs. Rocky's 4th fight.

His record of the 11 fights before Rocky were 1-13, 0-1, 0-0, 1-3-1, 0-0,
0-0, 0-0-1, 0-0, 1-5-0, 37-19-7, 39-21-6. the vast majority of these "fights" were 6 rounders-except 1) in Quebec, at a time when there was practically no Commission control there. {if there had been, they wouldn't have passed nearly all Ross's opponents}, who, to all practical intents and boxing purposes, were blind, deaf, and barely ambulatory.

A typical mob style "built -up " fake record to give him a 17-0 record . I'd bet that the mobsters used to win a ton of money on Rocky's fights against built up opponents.

Now I'm tired of the subject. I believe Rocky was a good husband and a dedicated training camp-er, with lots of courage, and could both dish out, and absorb lots of punishment.

But as a boxer, and a champion, he just didn't have it. Gene Tunney had a far better record, fought really tough competition, and lost just 1 fight to an all time great at his peak, Harry Greb. I think that I read somewhere that Tunney was ubdefeated in his first 52 fights, with a single draw, marring the clean sweep. Tunney would have half killed Rocky.

[TheGreatA]

Yes indeed. He's subtle in the way he goes about it, but he's one of the worst Euro-haters on the site. Oh, and he's not really Finnish - if he was, like Alec900, he'd be interested in Helenius who has two big fights coming up.

You're clueless. First off, you have me on ignore so I can't talk about Helenius on your thread. Secondly, I get to talk about Helenius more than enough with other Finnish people who actually know what they're talking about and have watched his fights.

How do you explain the fact that I've talked with Alec900 in Finnish?

All I can do is give my opinion, but I must tell you that my opinion is based on hard facts, for at least 2 reasons. 1) I was very involved in boxing all through Rocky's career, and read lots about him. 2) I have a large cardboard carton full to the brim with RING , BOXING ILLUSTRATE#D and several other boxing magazines, which cover from well before Rocky started, to long after he'd retired.

As a matter of fact I have a 1952 Ring, with an interview by Nat Loubet with Rocky. Nat at that time was one of the leading boxing reporters and journalists in the country, and later became RING publisher.

One of the things that Rocky said was that he was still learning and has quite a few good fights to come yet. Floyd Patterson was mentioned either later in the article or on another page. He was tearing tearing through the Heavyweight ranks like a wildfire. His manager referred to as the "eccetric" Cus D'Amato hated the Mafia or any control over him or any of his fighters, and Patterson was looked on at the next Champ, even though he'd had only about, maybe, 20 fights. It was the way he was winning. He was also an OLympic Gold Medal winner at middleweight.

To get to the finale of this little story, 6 days later, after the RING interview was published, where Rocky said he would be fighting for a few years yet, Rocky announced his retirement, citing his wife's disapproval of him fighting.

Now to get to your comments. Moore was 40 years old or more, a boxing marvel, no doubt, but a light heavy, and years past his best. He KD'd Rocky in, I think, the 2nd rd. and the ref very obviously got in his way for just long enough, when Marciano was getting up, woozy. It took 9 long rounds to beat Archie, although he went down a few times he didn't stay down. So much for Rocky's punching power [ like Sam Peter's??] At the time, Moore had had about 200 fights.

Before Moore was Don ****ell, an English lt.heavyweight champ with glandular trouble and uncontrollable eating habits. Also with about v80 fights of which he'd lost 10 or 11. He also went 9 or 10 rounds.

Ezzard Charles was about 34 and already beginning too suffer from the disease which killed him some years later at age 55. His best days were long, LONG gone and he fought hammer and tongs with Rocky. Within a year after fighting Rocky, Ezz, until retirement had lost about 15 of his last 20 fights. And had already lost 10 fights before he fought Marciano twice in 3 months. I think he KD'd Marciano a couple of times, and split his nose badly and they wwere going to stop the fight. He was built up lt. heavy. Great in his day, but that was LONG behind him. He had to keep fighting.

Jersey Joe was nearly 40, had lost 17 fights before he fought Marciano in a LONG LONG tough fight. I think he KD'd him too. He fought the return in withing 6 months. Didn't put up any kind of fight, and was "KO'd" in the first. he never fought again.

So you're asking me how far gone were they?? You could answer that yourself, if you get the correct and factual information. I could give you the REAL pertinent facts about Carmine Vingo and Roland LaStarza, not to mention Lee Savold...that is, if you wish.
You'd probably be surprised, as even I was, although I knew Rocky wasn't very good.
I just didn't know then exactly how bad his opponents were,

He was champ for about 3 years with 6 "defences", and it was interesting to note that after his first pro fight against a ham&egger named Epperson, he "managed" [maybe through his connected manager] somehow...to get reinstated to amateurism, so that he could try-out for the Olympics. He only had about 10 amateur fights altogether.

I almost forgot. The complete boxing business was controlled by the Mafia, almost from top to bottom, trainers, boxers, judges, promoters, and you name it, even Madison Sq. Garden. Rocky's manager All Weill was "connected" to use the requisite euphemism
His trainer was , I think Angelo Dundee was Charlie Goldman's assistant trainer. It's also very interesting to know that Chris Dundee the promoter was also reputed to be "connected" as was.............the young pilot of the plane that crashed killing Rocky and everyone else. I remember the pilot was described as the nephew of a connected mobster.

Did anyone know that when he retired, he went down to Mexico for a few exhibitions he'd arranged, and was able to keep all the money. He was described as having a great "devotion to the dollar". Also another unkind comment going the rounds at that time was that all of Rocky's best opponents were "old enough to be elected "president".

I've got lots more, but maybe no one is interested.

I'm definitely interested.

Archie Moore was 40 years of age and all the hard fights were catching up to him but he had cleaned out the division of its contenders and Marciano had to give him a shot. He was a legit opponent and went onto have more success, in fact his 1960 rematch 5 years later against Yvon Durelle is perhaps the best performance I've seen of him.



****ell despite being highly ranked was a bit of a joke fight no doubt, I would have rather seen Rocky fight someone like Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, both bigger opponents than the truly blown up Don ****ell who had previously been KO'd by Randy Turpin. Marciano's management were actually using ****ell to test his nose which had badly been cut by Ezzard's elbow in their second fight.



[IMG]http://img.***********.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/rockymarcianosplitrg5-1-1.jpg[/IMG]

Charles was not suffering from any disease if you ask me. He looked impressive in many of his previous bouts even though he had become more inconsistent in his performances than in his LHW prime. Against Rocky he put up a valiant effort the first time and took him the distance. In the rematch he was shot and was never the same again.





Jersey Joe was in good form at the time he fought Marciano. He was not as fleet-footed as he had been previously but he was very determined to win. His first fight against Rocky was one of his great performances. In the rematch he was shot, much like most of Marciano's opponents. Rocky took a lot out of every fighter he fought.



I did know about Marciano going back to the amateurs after winning his first pro fight and losing in the Golden Gloves to Joe Louis imitator Coley Wallace.

About the mob, many fighters were "connected" during that time but it doesn't necessarily mean they were frauds. We have film of Rocky and his opponents and they were all very, very legit. Now being connected did help Marciano early in his career, few fighters were "built up" like he was at the time, with Charles, Moore and Walcott fighting great opponents almost since their pro debuts.

Marciano's manager Weill said he didn't put Rocky with punchers until he felt Marciano was developed enough and that he avoided Archie Moore until the fight made sense money-wise. He also told a young Cassius Clay to avoid fighting Sonny Liston.

[Marciano90s]

so glad...a champ like Marciano deserves that.

[Slimey Limey]

edgarg is a typical example of a lonely **** that dedicated his entire life on discrediting Marciano. Even going as far as claiming he worked with Rocky himself and tells all these other lies not to mention errors in his "facts".
Why don't you go get a real job you old washed up never-been.

[Adamantium]

Marvin Hagler should get one as well. A great fighter who carried himself with dignity, in and out of the ring.

[GJC]

As a matter of fact I have a 1952 Ring, with an interview by Nat Loubet with Rocky. Nat at that time was one of the leading boxing reporters and journalists in the country, and later became RING publisher.

One of the things that Rocky said was that he was still learning and has quite a few good fights to come yet. Floyd Patterson was mentioned either later in the article or on another page. He was tearing tearing through the Heavyweight ranks like a wildfire. His manager referred to as the "eccetric" Cus D'Amato hated the Mafia or any control over him or any of his fighters, and Patterson was looked on at the next Champ, even though he'd had only about, maybe, 20 fights. It was the way he was winning. He was also an OLympic Gold Medal winner at middleweight.

Patterson only started pro boxing in 52 and had only had a couple of fights.
Also Patterson had only a couple of fights at Heavy up until Marciano retired.

As to the Mafia links re Marciano these have been thrown up time and time again with little proof. Pretty much any succesful Italian singer, film star, sportsman and businessman is going to "know" other Italian Americans who have a connection with the Mafia

[EuropeFightFan]

Rocky Marciano done more than enough to deserve a statue of himself to be made...he was a true great of the ring...a warrior inside the ring who had class outside of it...I'm tired of all the lame excuses used to discredit marciano by certain people...he was the heavyweight champion of his time...number one...and that's that.

[edgarg]

You're clueless. First off, you have me on ignore so I can't talk about Helenius on your thread. Secondly, I get to talk about Helenius more than enough with other Finnish people who actually know what they're talking about and have watched his fights.

How do you explain the fact that I've talked with Alec900 in Finnish?



I'm definitely interested.

Archie Moore was 40 years of age and all the hard fights were catching up to him but he had cleaned out the division of its contenders and Marciano had to give him a shot. He was a legit opponent and went onto have more success, in fact his 1960 rematch 5 years later against Yvon Durelle is perhaps the best performance I've seen of him.



****ell despite being highly ranked was a bit of a joke fight no doubt, I would have rather seen Rocky fight someone like Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, both bigger opponents than the truly blown up Don ****ell who had previously been KO'd by Randy Turpin. Marciano's management were actually using ****ell to test his nose which had badly been cut by Ezzard's elbow in their second fight.



[IMG]http://img.***********.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/rockymarcianosplitrg5-1-1.jpg[/IMG]

Charles was not suffering from any disease if you ask me. He looked impressive in many of his previous bouts even though he had become more inconsistent in his performances than in his LHW prime. Against Rocky he put up a valiant effort the first time and took him the distance. In the rematch he was shot and was never the same again.





Jersey Joe was in good form at the time he fought Marciano. He was not as fleet-footed as he had been previously but he was very determined to win. His first fight against Rocky was one of his great performances. In the rematch he was shot, much like most of Marciano's opponents. Rocky took a lot out of every fighter he fought.



I did know about Marciano going back to the amateurs after winning his first pro fight and losing in the Golden Gloves to Joe Louis imitator Coley Wallace.

About the mob, many fighters were "connected" during that time but it doesn't necessarily mean they were frauds. We have film of Rocky and his opponents and they were all very, very legit. Now being connected did help Marciano early in his career, few fighters were "built up" like he was at the time, with Charles, Moore and Walcott fighting great opponents almost since their pro debuts.

Marciano's manager Weill said he didn't put Rocky with punchers until he felt Marciano was developed enough and that he avoided Archie Moore until the fight made sense money-wise. He also told a young Cassius Clay to avoid fighting Sonny Liston.

That's an interesting post, although of course whilst I don't exactly agree with your conclusions about Ezz and Walcott.

The reason Moore got that fight was because he'd had some success fighting heavyweights, and he put on an unmerciful propaganda onslaught for months,to get the fight, which originally wasn't on the cards.

If you look at the fight, you can see that when Moore KD'd Rocky, he got up too early and was in difficulties, the ref completely shielded him which gave him extra seconds to recover. It all happened so fast that it has to be carefully watched.

I don't think that Ezz was suffering from that disease when he fought Rocky, perhaps by the secnd time, I just don't know, but I've seen articles of medical interviews where it was stated that it had a very subtle sort of beginning, almost unnoticed at first, and had later visible development from after he fought Rocky. He had to keep fighting even though he had it. Tragic.

Mobsters building up useless fighters to make a big betting win was fairly common.

[GJC]

****ell used to sometimes have as many as a dozen fights a year or thereabouts, and by the time he fought Rocky, was on the verge of retirement. That qualified him as a Rocky opponent. He may have had another fight or two, but was actually finished.

No what qualified him as a Rocky opponent was he was a ranked Heavyweight, after he moved up from LHW he put a string of wins together including one over La Starza another ranked HW and got a shot. No he wasn't the greatest fighter to put onm gloves but neither was he I believe planning retirment.
He was only in his mid 20's I would imagine the glandular problem contributed to his early retirement plus having the granny beaten out of him by Marciano didn't help.

[edgarg]

Patterson only started pro boxing in 52 and had only had a couple of fights.
Also Patterson had only a couple of fights at Heavy up until Marciano retired.

As to the Mafia links re Marciano these have been thrown up time and time again with little proof. Pretty much any succesful Italian singer, film star, sportsman and businessman is going to "know" other Italian Americans who have a connection with the Mafia

Well, Patterson had had more than a couple of fights. I just checked with boxrec, and he'd had about 30, of which he'd won 20 by KO, including a long KO list of 13,up to Rocky's Ring interview. Although as you say he was a lt.heavy, he'd fought several respectable heavyweights whilst still being outweighed.

He was like a "wildfire" ,blazingly fast, reputed to have been the fastest punching heavyweight in history.

And, 9 months later, he fought and half killed Archie Moore for the vacated title.