Why it's illegal to say Usyk is better than Ali

[The Big Dunn]

You can't handpick segments of a career. Wladimir was perfect for about ten years. Lennox was perfect except for two catastrophic errors. Joe Louis was perfect for almost 20 defenses. Tyson Fury was perfect for most of his career. Ali was sensational and spectacular but the magic carpet ended when Eddie Futch figured him out twice. Nobody has figured out Usyk. I think the end of the career is most important and most memorable. We remembers Ali's genius but the lasting memory, hate to say it, are those losses to Holmes and Berbick. They should not but they do overshadow the genius. Usyk, it appears, is going to exit the sport as a winner and as champion in perfect health. We all wish Ali could have ended his career differently. But Ali was not great enough to finish his career the way he would have liked to.

I was just responding to your point. Losses definitely matter so if Usyk retires undefeated, I think we can revisit this.

I do agree I doubt he is forced to hang on like Ali, Louis and so many other American boxers.

I don’t think they overshadow his greatness. The most talked about Ali fights are Frazier 1 and 3 and Foreman. They resonate much more than those losses.

[QueensburyRules]

- - I looked up to Ali as a sorta big brother getting to do what he wanted to do, but I never saw him as better than Louis and Dempsey or even Big George.

Usyk representing 30 yrs of Ukrainian Domination of The Flagship division is unprecedented in any division.

[Bennyleonard99]

I was just responding to your point. Losses definitely matter so if Usyk retires undefeated, I think we can revisit this.

I do agree I doubt he is forced to hang on like Ali, Louis and so many other American boxers.

I don’t think they overshadow his greatness. The most talked about Ali fights are Frazier 1 and 3 and Foreman. They resonate much more than those losses.

Norman Mailer said we have to judge a man at his best for that is what he was intended to be. Yes we all remember the magic of Ali at his best. But we also remember him at his worst at the end unfortunately. Usyk never had a bad moment or failure or crash at the end. He is too good to let that happen, it would appear right now. We are comparing Ali and Usyk and the final chapters are an important part of the comparison. Both awesomely great in their own ways but one has clearly engineered the better overall career.

[Bennyleonard99]

You’re wrong. Had you been reading other threads you’d know why he made this one. He has been getting killed for his opinion by dozens of other posters.

The TS asks why is it illegal. My response was because you’re not making a resume based argument. Something the TS acknowledges when he responds back.

He of course knows I am a Usyk fan because he has seen me in other threads. So we debate it rationally and cordially.

I didn’t tell him otherwise. I asked him to make a boxing case for that opinion. I told him I disagreed and why.

If he is fine with our discussion, go away.

My Usyk is the goat concept is not getting killed anywhere. The support is about 50-50. Which is pretty good for such a controversial and innovative idea. Most boxing fans have been conditioned to have to automatically believe Ali is the greatest forever no matter what, Free thinkers see clearly Usyk has achieved a far more impressive career than Ali in terms of perfect results, perfect record, and self preservation. Anyone reading this would rather end up like Usyk than in Ali's health, forgive me for saying that but this is a serious debate and that factor can't be ignored. I think in short time Usyk will be considered as the goat. And Ali was a contributing factor and inspiration to create this perfect fighting machine Usyk.

[kafkod]

I think the issue is you pretending your reason for saying Usyk is better is boxing resume related when it is clearly related to other things not boxing.

Usyk is no doubt an ATG. IMO the best boxer in the world right now. Does his hwt resume match Ali’s? Imo no. That would be hard because Ali fought in an era with a lot of hwt talent.

Try making it just about boxing instead of your racial conspiracies.

Can you prove there was more "talent" back then? No you can't. Frazier was a one dimensional small guy. Foreman was an arm puncher with little technical skills. Norton was a limited brawler. Ron Lyle was a brawler. Where is all this "talent" you speak of? Yes the perception is Ali's era was the greatest but the reality is probably the Ali era is the most popular and most celebrated. And every era post Ali is automatically deemed weaker which is a myth. All eras are tough. I think there is a racial and political factor involved in marginalizing Usyk. If Usyk was black from Brooklyn, I think the media would be much more favorable for him. And he would have a ton more. Movies and books would be written about Usyk.

After I first came online in 2006, as a keen boxing fan, I started trawling for boxing content, and became borderline obsessed with Ali, both as a fighter and as a global cultural/political figure. As a result, I can well understand why black people all over the world, and also anti-establishment type white Americans, loved the guy so much.

Imo, this ties in with a general tendency which pervades the way fans think about boxing, especially HW boxing. I'm talking about a tendency to glorify and romanticize great fighters from the past. The exact opposite of recency bias. I think the reason for this is that great fighters stir up great emotions in fans. They mean something to us, something which transcends mere sporting competition, and we don't want them to fade into the darkness when their careers end.

So who is better, Ali or Usyk? Head to head, I wouldn't pick any HW in history to beat either of them, so I'm on the fence there.

But Ali had 61 fights, with 56 wins. And Usyk, even including his cruiserweight fights, has only had 24. So Ali obviously has the better resume.

[kafkod]

Usyk never tested positive for steroids like Ali

The Ali we're talking about here never tested positive for any PEDs.

You are maybe getting him confused with a British flyweight of the same name?

[Bennyleonard99]

After I first came online in 2006, as a keen boxing fan, I started trawling for boxing content, and became borderline obsessed with Ali, both as a fighter and as a global cultural/political figure. As a result, I can well understand why black people all over the world, and also anti-establishment type white Americans, loved the guy so much.

Imo, this ties in with a general tendency which pervades the way fans think about boxing, especially HW boxing. I'm talking about a tendency to glorify and romanticize great fighters from the past. The exact opposite of recency bias. I think the reason for this is that great fighters stir up great emotions in fans. They mean something to us, something which transcends mere sporting competition, and we don't want them to fade into the darkness when their careers end.

So who is better, Ali or Usyk? Head to head, I wouldn't pick any HW in history to beat either of them, so I'm on the fence there.

But Ali had 61 fights, with 56 wins. And Usyk, even including his cruiserweight fights, has only had 24. So Ali obviously has the better resume.

Fan loyalty is real. Our favorite fighters are like distant family, we think about them and adore them more than some of our own family members. So some super loyal fans will defend their fighter's honor and legacy to no limits. Ali is such a figure and maybe the most fiercely protected of all. Ali was great. Usyk was great. They both had unforgettable careers. One of them did it just a little better. Someday someone may come along and be inspired to be even better than Usyk. Hard to imagine but it's possible. After Ali it was hard to imagine anyone doing it better.

[HisExcellency]

It's "illegal" because it's stxpid to compare beating 3 crashouts like Fury, Joshua, & Dubois, who've all been embarrassed by other people before they fought Usyk to George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, & Ken Norton Sr.

EXACTLY...Ali beat multiple HoF'ers (handing several of them their first ever loss) whereas in reality only Fury is likely to be inducted into the HoF. Therefore, Ali is definitely the superior Heavyweight. However, when you consider his ENTIRE body of work i.e. amateur career, undefeated, undisputed Cruiserweight champion, undisputed Heavyweight champion (twice) etc, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Usyk is an EQUIVALENT talent to Ali in terms of boxing ability.

[The Big Dunn]

Fan loyalty is real. Our favorite fighters are like distant family, we think about them and adore them more than some of our own family members. So some super loyal fans will defend their fighter's honor and legacy to no limits. Ali is such a figure and maybe the most fiercely protected of all. Ali was great. Usyk was great. They both had unforgettable careers. One of them did it just a little better. Someday someone may come along and be inspired to be even better than Usyk. Hard to imagine but it's possible. After Ali it was hard to imagine anyone doing it better.

Respectfully, Usyk’s career is great and unforgettable. Ali’s is both plus legendary.

The one thing I have noticed is how ignorant people are when it comes to Usyk’s run which is really amazing.

Maybe that is the issue here. Ali’s hwt run was in regular TV for all to see at a time when being the hwt champ was being the baddest man on the planet.

Usyk’s run had the cruisers no one knows about and his hwt run is during the time when few people see it on DAZN and the baddest man on the planet is from MMA.

[aAgger]

A few years ago, this forum was filled with Fury fans proclaiming him to be greater than Ali... LOL!

After Usyk exposed Fury, now the same lot are proclaiming Usyk to be greater than Ali... Recency bias strikes again!

A true testament to a fighter's greatness is when people are still calling him the GOAT many years and decades later.