Is Luis Ortiz the greatest heavyweight to never win a title

[FlatLine]

Ortiz was skilled but it's difficult to tell how good he really was because he doesn't really have standout wins against respected top 10 opponents. Was his best win Bryant Jennings back in 2018.. Or Charles Martin a few years ago..? Wilder turned out to be slightly limited and overrated, having lost to the 3 best guys he ever faced (on paper) Fury, Parker and Zhang. But Ortiz lost to Wilder twice.

[drablj]

no. that is sam langford.

[TheProudLunatic]

That would be Tua

[Willow The Wisp]

based on what? ruiz and dubois are both better than ortiz so i dont understand that at all. of course styles make fights but if a limited fighter like wilder was able to bomb ortiz out of there couldnt you assume a much better fighter like joshua would do the same?

Knowledge, son. Based on deep, deep knowledge; and having seen all the heavyweight contenders being mentioned here fighting live, and most of them training.

I only teach. Seldom debate. As to which accomplishes greater gains; the jury deliberates.

Relating to Ruiz and Dubois relative to Oriz, at full measure; I don't count you as incorrect; which is your good news for the day.


The current era is 2015 - 2025

1. Oleksandr Usyk
2. Tyson Fury
3. Deontay Wilder
4. Zhilei Zhang
5. Anthony Joshua
6. Daniel Dubois
7. Joseph Parker
8. Andy Ruiz Jr
9. Martin Bakole
10.Luis Ortiz
11.Wladimir Klitschko (old ver)
12.Agit Kabayel
13.Dillian Whyte
14.Joe Joyce
15.Jarrell Miller
16.Alexander Povetkin (old ver)
17.Derrick Chisora
18.Kubrat Pulev (old ver)
19.Filip Hrgovic
20.Charles Martin
21.Fabio Wardley
22.Carlos Takam
23.Johann Duhaupas
24.Robert Helenius
25.Jared Anderson
26.Hughie Fury
27.Otto Wallin
28.Bryant Jennings
29.Frank Sanchez
30.Bermane Stiverne
31.Efe Ajagba
32.Chris Arreola (old ver)
33.Michael Hunter
34.Frazier Clarke
35.Bakhodir Jalolov
36.Tony Yoka
37.Murat Gassiev
38.Aleksandr Ustinov
39.Lucas Browne
40.Dominic Breazeale
41.Gerald Washington
42.Jermain Franklin
43.Lenier Pero
44.David Haye
45.Vyacheslav Glazkov
46.Ruslan Chagaev (old)
47.Guido Vianello
48.Arslanbek Makhmudov
49.Johnathan Guidry
50.Francis Ngannou

[billeau2]

Not on his team and not aware of the particulars involved; but looking closely at those two fighters; their respective strengths and liabilities; I would immediately jump at a title shot at the talented, respected but fragile Joshua, if I were piloting Ortiz. What Andy Ruiz and Daniel Dubois can do; Ortiz could have done better just a few years ago.

Yup... We are expected to believe that Ortiz and his team were scared? As Judge Judy often says "If it does not make sense, it is probably not true." We will probably never know what factors led to the fight between Ortiz and Joshua not happening... But one thing I have faith in? It did not have to do with a duck.

[billeau2]

didnt we already establish joe joyce as being a lot better than ortiz, and he was in the exact same era. joyce beat dubois and parker. ortiz beat jennings and malik scott? im sure we can think of 20 guys better than him and its not even hard to win a belt in the 4 belt era

Only in your alternate reality Duhhgum.

[daggum]

Knowledge, son. Based on deep, deep knowledge; and having seen all the heavyweight contenders being mentioned here fighting live, and most of them training.

I only teach. Seldom debate. As to which accomplishes greater gains; the jury deliberates.

Relating to Ruiz and Dubois relative to Oriz, at full measure; I don't count you as incorrect; which is your good news for the day.


The current era is 2015 - 2025

1. Oleksandr Usyk
2. Tyson Fury
3. Deontay Wilder
4. Zhilei Zhang
5. Anthony Joshua
6. Daniel Dubois
7. Joseph Parker
8. Andy Ruiz Jr
9. Martin Bakole
10.Luis Ortiz
11.Wladimir Klitschko (old ver)
12.Agit Kabayel
13.Dillian Whyte
14.Joe Joyce
15.Jarrell Miller
16.Alexander Povetkin (old ver)
17.Derrick Chisora
18.Kubrat Pulev (old ver)
19.Filip Hrgovic
20.Charles Martin
21.Fabio Wardley
22.Carlos Takam
23.Johann Duhaupas
24.Robert Helenius
25.Jared Anderson
26.Hughie Fury
27.Otto Wallin
28.Bryant Jennings
29.Frank Sanchez
30.Bermane Stiverne
31.Efe Ajagba
32.Chris Arreola (old ver)
33.Michael Hunter
34.Frazier Clarke
35.Bakhodir Jalolov
36.Tony Yoka
37.Murat Gassiev
38.Aleksandr Ustinov
39.Lucas Browne
40.Dominic Breazeale
41.Gerald Washington
42.Jermain Franklin
43.Lenier Pero
44.David Haye
45.Vyacheslav Glazkov
46.Ruslan Chagaev (old)
47.Guido Vianello
48.Arslanbek Makhmudov
49.Johnathan Guidry
50.Francis Ngannou

thank you for your randomly generated list

[daggum]

Only in your alternate reality Duhhgum.

in your reality travis kauffman and malik scott are on the same level as dubois and parker and you have said as much which is what destroys your credibility. you pretzel yourself every time by saying "they are all the same" which of course is complete rubbish and that leaves you with the "ortiz has better skills" argument which of course is completely subjective and even if we entertained that argument if ortiz had such great skills how come he couldnt beat wilder? or ruiz jr? how come he almost lost to charles martin? if joyce was such a bum how was he able to beat jennings(ortizs best win) stiverne(wilders 2nd best win) and dubois and parker who are at the top of the division right now.

when you look at all that data its pretty clear the wilder, ortiz, pbc side of the bracket was incredibly weak and those guys were overrated because when they combined the brackets guys like ortiz and wilder didnt hold up to the rest of the division. you are acting like this didnt happen which is strange because it did. you cant play the "when wilder and ortiz fight the other guys they will win" argument because they didnt and you certainly cant say that side of the bracket was better since a guy like joyce handled wilder and ortizs best wins on top of beating some of the top guys from his side of the bracket. joyce actually got some big wins. wilder and ortiz feasted on each other then got mollywopped by the better fighters.

[daggum]

Ortiz was skilled but it's difficult to tell how good he really was because he doesn't really have standout wins against respected top 10 opponents. Was his best win Bryant Jennings back in 2018.. Or Charles Martin a few years ago..? Wilder turned out to be slightly limited and overrated, having lost to the 3 best guys he ever faced (on paper) Fury, Parker and Zhang. But Ortiz lost to Wilder twice.

joyce was simply on the tough side of the bracket with guys like dubois, parker, and zhang. wilder and ortiz were on the easy side of the bracket(by their choice) when the fighters all started fighting each other wilder and ortiz fell off. guys like zhang, parker, dubois, and joyce very shortly ended up towards the top and the bottom lesser fighters like wilder and ortiz were filtered out.

[billeau2]

in your reality travis kauffman and malik scott are on the same level as dubois and parker and you have said as much which is what destroys your credibility. you pretzel yourself every time by saying "they are all the same" which of course is complete rubbish and that leaves you with the "ortiz has better skills" argument which of course is completely subjective and even if we entertained that argument if ortiz had such great skills how come he couldnt beat wilder? or ruiz jr? how come he almost lost to charles martin? if joyce was such a bum how was he able to beat jennings(ortizs best win) stiverne(wilders 2nd best win) and dubois and parker who are at the top of the division right now.

when you look at all that data its pretty clear the wilder, ortiz, pbc side of the bracket was incredibly weak and those guys were overrated because when they combined the brackets guys like ortiz and wilder didnt hold up to the rest of the division. you are acting like this didnt happen which is strange because it did. you cant play the "when wilder and ortiz fight the other guys they will win" argument because they didnt and you certainly cant say that side of the bracket was better since a guy like joyce handled wilder and ortizs best wins on top of beating some of the top guys from his side of the bracket. joyce actually got some big wins. wilder and ortiz feasted on each other then got mollywopped by the better fighters.

You neglect to consider the times before Dubois and Parker got better. You make distinctions amongst fair to good fighters but refuse to make a distinction between the Dubois who lost to Joyce, the Parker who was fair to middlin and when they jelled into more improved fighters... You want to have it both ways, you either make fine distinctions, or do not. My argument is based on actual physical evidence, what one can see from tape, and logic. You do not consider losses (how silly) and you wantto make subjective "rankings" objective.

You also completely ignore Wilder's success and would have people believe when he was shot he was the same fighter. Again, a casual view... real fans? they can watch tape and see the difference between a shot fighter and a really dangerous puncher, but you cannot, so you wind up the gimp. Almost lostto martin? lol... Ok if he almost lost to Martin lets look at how Joyce was unable to make a basic adjustment against a one armed fighter. Joyce's success should tell you what a weak division it is. Do you think Zhang was better than all those guys he beat lol.

You contradict yourself... You want to make fine distinctions when it suites you and then you want to declare a great range of talent in the division when the facts clearly tell us this is a weak division with some fighters who have gotten better, still weak though... And that is the general statement that is true... Wilder would always be dangerous, but yes, in a cracker jack division he would probably fair like Shavers, for a while, but Wilder just had no durability. You don't get that, you never will. Typical casual who makes utterly ridiculous assertions based on alphabet soup politics and little else. Then you release the Gimp because you could not handle it... You know how toxic that Euronationalist Gimp is? The pollution count went up!

learn more about the sport, learn about the technical side, aspects that are not always obvious... learn what a shot fighter looks like... be able to specifically illustrate WHY and HOW a fighter like Jennings and Stiverne are worse in a general way than other fighters in the division...