Who is greater? Joseph Parker or Luis Ortiz

[pollywog]

Ortiz had 2 opportunities to fight AJ and he swerved both of them. Or rather, his team swerved them for him.

First swerve came when he was the mandatory challenger for AJ's WBA title and next in line for his shot. Instead of taking it, he inexplicably left Matchroom and signed to fight Wilder instead of AJ, then failed a PED test and lost his mandatory position.

Second swerve came when AJ was looking for a new opponent after Big Pharma Miller got popped the first time. Ortiz went on social media saying he was ready and willing to replace Miller. Hearn offered him the shot for a career high purse of $7million, which was $2million more than Miller would have got. Ortiz's manager turned the offer down.

AJ ducked Ortiz who was IBF mandatory - after beating Klit - to fight Poohlev.

Ortiz was gagging to step in for Miller before Ruiz, but negotiations fell apart.

Id hazard a guess its because of Hearn and AJ not wanting the dangerous southpaw Ortiz on short notice.

Ortiz was horribly mismanaged though, ill give you that.

[kafkod]

AJ ducked Ortiz who was IBF mandatory - after beating Klit - to fight Poohlev.

WRONG.

Ortiz was mandatory for the WBA title, not the IBF.

The WBA ordered AJ to fight Ortiz next after AJ beat Wlad, But they then agreed to postpone their mandatory to allow AJ to unify with Parker. After AJ beat Parker, all Ortiz needed to do was inform the WBA that he was ready for his shot and AJ would have had to fight him, or relinquish the WBA belt. But instead of doing that, Ortiz left Matchroom for PBC, signed to fight Wilder, then got popped for PEDs and lost his WBA mandatory position. Povetkin then won a final eliminator vs Hammer and became AJ's new WBA mando.

The narrative you are pushing has no basis in fact. I presume you must have got it from reading the utter rubbish posted by PBC fans in forums like this.

Ortiz was gagging to step in for Miller before Ruiz, but negotiations fell apart.

Id hazard a guess its because of Hearn and AJ not wanting the dangerous southpaw Ortiz on short notice.

Negotiations fell apart ... as in, Hearn offered Ortiz $7million to fight AJ, $2million more than Miller would have got, and Ortiz's manager turned it down. Come on mate, you can do better than this.

[pollywog]

WRONG.

Ortiz was mandatory for the WBA title, not the IBF.

My bad. You are absolutely correct.

I'm just running shït off the top of my dome from memory and getting my ABC's mixed up with my XYZ's.

What remains is pure opinion.

One of them being, Hearn had no intention of ever matching Joshua with Prime Ortiz. Same goes for Prime Wilder, Prime Joyce, Prime Hrgoviv and now Prime Bakole.

Team Joshy will drop names and pretend they want the smoke but really, it's all mirrors.

[kafkod]

My bad. You are absolutely correct.

I'm just running shït off the top of my dome from memory and getting my ABC's mixed up with my XYZ's.

What remains is pure opinion.

One of them being, Hearn had no intention of ever matching Joshua with Prime Ortiz. Same goes for Prime Wilder, Prime Joyce, Prime Hrgoviv and now Prime Bakole.

Team Joshy will drop names and pretend they want the smoke but really, it's all mirrors.

Only opinion, but that opinion doesn't fit the facts. First, if Ortiz hadn't signed to fight Wilder then got popped for PEDs, AJ would have had no choice about fighting him. WBA mando, remember.

And if Hearn didn't want that fight to happen, why would he sign Ortiz to Matchroom, then give him an easy fight against a fan favourite, in Dave Allen, on the undercard of AJ vs Molina? It's obvious that Eddie's plan was to introduce Ortiz to the UK fans, build interest in the WBA mandated fight between Ortiz and AJ, then go into that fight as the promoter of both guys.

Second, if Hearn didn't want AJ to fight prime Wilder, why did he make 2 career high offers to Wilder, then give the green light to AJ vs Wilder, if Deontay accepted the massive offer he got for the fight from DAZN?

Bakole wasn't a top contender during AJ's title reign. And as for Joyce and Hrgovic .. just when was AJ supposed to fight them, with all his mandatory obligations? If he hadn't lost to Ruiz, I'm sure they would have got their shots eventually, but he couldn't fight everybody at the same time.

Btw, I just listened to Frank Warren and Turki on TalkSport, talking about upcoming plans for the HW division next year. They wouldn't be specific, but they were both talking about what might happen after Dubois fights Usyk to re-unify the belts. It sounds like the plan is for the winner to fight Moses Itauma next, and quickly enough for Moses to have a chance at becoming the youngest ever HW champ. What struck me was that one name was conspicuously missing from that conversation - Joseph Parker. Jeez, talk about counting your chickens before the eggs have hatched... will these guys never learn not to do that with HWs?

[billeau2]

if parker loses his next fight his resume will still be 10 times better than ruiz's so whats your point? you keep talking about losses, what about wins? parker has way better wins than ortiz. you still havent explained why you voted for ortiz? from what im gathering, its because you desperately want to prop up wilder and his slim resume, but just look at their resumes? not even close right? im seeing how far fandom can go...and pretty far apparently.

and no wilder being shot was not a reality, thats you trying to revise history. he just ko'd helenius in 1 round, the same type of opponent he had been fighting his entire career(cept ortiz) but hes suddenly shot when he fights someone prime? ridiculous. wilder was a 6 to 1 favorite over parker.

I explained very clearly why I voted for Ortiz... And I also presented a caveat. Your idea of "better wins" is a falsehood based on subjective rankings. You also do not talk about losses.

I don't prop up any fighter, I look and evaluate based on technical skills, competition, and performance... I do not even always consider decisions... You? You look at politically motivated rankings, and go into a turd bowl telling people "this turd is better than that one." FACT, the heavyweight division is and has been weak since Lewis... Weaker today than even when the Klits were champions. The difference between Chisora and Bermaine Stiverne (for example) is negligible!

[billeau2]

but parker has already beat out ortiz, he doenst have to do anything and is still way better than him. ortiz was thought highly of because of his hype, parker because of his resume. problem is ortiz didnt capitalize on that hype and his resume is mid at best. parkers resume is very good

once again there you go talking about losses while ignoring quality wins. who has the better wins? parker. therefore he is better. makes sense to everyone else but you. ortiz has never faltered...oh wait he was ko'd twice by wilder who parker easily beat. he lost to ruiz who parker beat. parker even beat zhang who killed wilder and joyce who beat parker. that should tell you hes a guy that has fought almost everyone and done quiet well, ortiz on the other hand is a guy who hasnt fought that many quality fighters and hasnt done too well yet you still keep giving him special fantasy powers.

Because you do not count losses ful! What about Joyce? What about Joyce before he started losing fights? Big difference right? ful... Ortiz did not falter until AFTER the Wilder fights... He beat all the opponents faced out of a pool of opponents who constituted the same skill level as those men fought by other heavyweights contemporary... Facts.

[billeau2]

you should rename yourself billeau the post-modernist. what does being greater mean as a boxer? deep deep stuff. who has the better accomplishments in boxing. who beat the better opponents. you seem to think being greater is making up excuses as to why ortiz didnt accomplish as much as parker. im just looking at what they actually accomplished. you know fanboy stuff! you also are really bad at analogizing things. chocolate or vanilla? uh no not like that at all in fact. one guy has a long list of accomplishments and a deep resume, other guy has a slim resume and lost to guys the other guy beat.

Listen idiot... If you tell me Jimmy Young beat better fighters than Vlad Klitsko it means a lot to me... It happens to be true and can be shown any number of ways... But when you tell me the generic aspirin is not the same as Bayer aspirin? I am going to call you on it. Your means of distinguishing levels to the game is wrong. It simply uses incorrect measures that lack empirical evidence of being truth. Rankings are subjective. They do not tell us if Chisora is better than Stirvene. And just beating other fighters means nothing if the losses are not considered... carefully... Levels to the game! When Joyce started losing? It was because in a weak era his strategy took a while to unpack. He was never really that good. One can see this observing his technical means and how easy it was to overcome... Ortiz fought well, showed skills, and got old after the Wilder fights. It can be shown.

[billeau2]

In reality Ortiz should've won the 1st Wilder fight when the ref and docs and their mothers stepped in between rounds and gave Wilder 3 hours to clear his head. That was a robbery.

Regardless... if we look at Joyce and Ortiz: Joyce had a gimmick. It took a while, given the general level of comp for fighters to figure out Joyce (and Kolnawski) for that matter... Ortiz had footwork, a jab and power. As you suggest he fought well against Wilder.

[billeau2]

When was "prime ortiz"?

Also it was ortiz that turned down a career high payday and a shot at the title


https://www.boxingscene.com/luis-ort...hua-61--138307

unfortunately like a good deal of Cuban fighters we never got to see a prime Ortiz...

[billeau2]

Obviously Parkers resume is far superior. Ortiz never did much.

BUT, I do think the Ortiz of like 10 years ago would have given any version of Parker a tough fight.

See that is more like it! Let's say we take today's parker, considered his best... squarely between some twilight of youth and the wisdom to put it all together, versus a similar version of Ortiz... People can agree to disagree but the fact is anyone with sense would accept this is a close fight and has two relatively equally skilled fighters. I happen to believe Ortiz would win, but I can see Parker winning as well.

Daggum takes rankings, ****** distinctions about the general level of opposition faced by both men, etc to distort the relative skill of both fighters. That is my bone to pick with him.