Robeisy Ramirez Reportedly Has An Orbital Fracture

[garfios]

Good post. The picture you posted was from round 1. That was the chicken wing elbow, which he followed up with another one. Definitely an elbow that he made contact with, although replay looked pretty definitive that it didn't make contact with the eye.

Where garfios and I differ is that he's sure that it was deliberate, and I think there's sufficient evidence to support alternate explanations. Frankly, proving intent is a very high bar. Try it in a courtroom sometime and see how it goes. Is it possible he's a dirty fighter? Sure. But the preponderance of evidence not only doesn't support such a strong conclusion, but in fact makes it less likely IMO.

We are not in a courtroom, I have been watching boxing for over 60 years, and I fought 45 times back in Cuba until the age of 15 when my parents said no mas, if you see a replay of a fight you can tell if it is accidentally or on purpose, especially if it is in slow motion. If you don't have intentiont of using the elbow when throwing a punch, you bring back the arm or follow through with your forearm, pushing, not turning the arm towards the face using the tip of the elbow as a weapon, and when you you see the arm turning that's not by chance, just the same with the MMA fighters. The guy is dirty and he knows it.

[crimsonfalcon07]

So you think the grazing blow that "ended" the fight, and just to remind you his eye began to swell after he complained to the ref for the elbows, in the fifth round. The evidence is there to be seen, he got hit, complained to ref who acknowledged the foul and the eye began to swell, and you suggested on a previous post that the grazing last punch ended the fight. Common man, do you think we're idiots?

Wasn't a grazing punch. That landed completely clean, and the downward trajectory of it is the kind of power punch that transfers a LOT of impact. It might not look like much to you, but Inoue in particular regularly knocks guys spark out using that specific technique. I could teach you how to do it yourself probably in a day, and you'd be able to feel the difference, even if you're a couch potato.

Now, I think there's a high probability that he did, in fact, injure his eye in round 4 or 5. Espinoza landed some clean punches on the eye throughout the fight, and I wouldn't be surprised if that missed punch in 5 did in fact contribute. Where you and I differ is that you think it's deliberate, and I think that's very far from being proven, and very likely isn't, because it's clearly a missed right cross. That's not the punch you use to throw elbows precisely because it's guaranteed to be a glancing strike with no impact. The impact happened as he recoiled, and came primarily from Ramirez himself. There's multiple aspects of this that, as I've said, you can try for yourself and you'll see that the details make intent less likely, not more.

As for your last question, I generally take you to be a pretty smart poster, and appreciate your takes. But I spent a few years teaching formal logic and my bar for proving intent is clearly not the same as yours. I've also spent nearly 3 decades now competing and training in various combat sports, so perhaps you can understand that my perspective might differ from yours, and why I might be willing to give more benefit of the doubt to fighters, in this case, on both sides. I'm not prepared to say confidently that Espinoza is a cheater, and frankly, I don't think you're really even interested in admitting that you might have jumped the gun on this, and I'm also not prepared to write Ramirez off for quitting. Both of those are things that, logically, are literally impossible for us to know for certain.

[crimsonfalcon07]

We are not in a courtroom, I have been watching boxing for over 60 years, and I fought 45 times back in Cuba until the age of 15 when my parents said no mas, if you see a replay of a fight you can tell if it is accidentally or on purpose, especially if it is in slow motion. If you don't have intentiont of using the elbow when throwing a punch, you bring back the arm or follow through with your forearm, pushing, not turning the arm towards the face using the tip of the elbow as a weapon, and when you you see the arm turning that's not by chance, just the same with the MMA fighters. The guy is dirty and he knows it.

You're hilarious. He literally did bring the arm back in, which is why you can see the forearm against Robeisy's face. Robeisy maintained contact the whole time so he anatomically couldn't do anything different other than leave his arm extended and accept a compromised posture. I literally gave you screenshots of the moments so you can see he's got a straight arm with no elbow contact, then tucks it in, and Ramirez runs into the forearm. Your own explanations prove you wrong, FFS. His arm came back in across his body low, in a frame. Look at the second screenshot. He's not turning it out. His elbow is pointed down towards the ground. Are you being blind on purpose?

[garfios]

You’re right. It does appear to be from round one. My sense is that the elbows were intentional. Rewatching the video in slow motion (which they did in round three during the fight), Espinoza first misses with the elbow, keeps it in the air, then re-adjusts and sticks it in Ramirez’s face. Frankly, I never saw more elbow contact in this fight after the first round. I just don’t see why Ramirez would claim elbow fouls and double-vision while in his corner if something didn’t happen. He was doing very well in the fight — winning, if you ask me — and he wasn’t getting hit, really. All of a sudden a well-placed but unremarkable punch lands on his eye and he calls it? It’s all very strange.

Paisano, there's a clip where espinoza throws the left elbow, Ramirez ducks under and gets hit by the right elbow flush, 5th round.

[garfios]

You're hilarious. He literally did bring the arm back in, which is why you can see the forearm against Robeisy's face. Robeisy maintained contact the whole time so he anatomically couldn't do anything different other than leave his arm extended and accept a compromised posture. I literally gave you screenshots of the moments so you can see he's got a straight arm with no elbow contact, then tucks it in, and Ramirez runs into the forearm. Your own explanations prove you wrong, FFS. His arm came back in across his body low, in a frame. Look at the second screenshot. He's not turning it out. His elbow is pointed down towards the ground. Are you being blind on purpose?

He turned the arm deliberately, it was not an accident and he did it a few times.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Paisano, there's a clip where espinoza throws the left elbow, Ramirez ducks under and gets hit by the right elbow flush, 5th round.

That wasn't the fifth round. The clip you are talking about is from the first round. And note that Ramirez didn't complain about damage to his eye after that round. The ONLY thing that happened in the 5th round was the one incident with the missed right and the aborted uppercut.

https://********/WMWvO6n14HU?si=aNStDPRkLyZPc24R

There's some dishonest YouTubers who have been spinning it to make it seem like the left elbow right elbow part happened in the 5th, but it didn't. That was the first round, and he got warned for those. Those two, and the incident in the 5th are the ONLY ones anyone has been able to find.

That one from the first is sketchy for sure, and if that were the one you were complaining about, as I said, I would be much more willing to give credence to your theory. But it was the first round, and it didn't make contact with the orbital, and Ramirez didn't have any damage from it.

At this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree, especially because your facts aren't even straight. Rewatch the fight again and tell me the time stamps for this alleged left right elbow combo. You won't find it in the 4th or 5th.

[garfios]

That wasn't the fifth round. The clip you are talking about is from the first round. And note that Ramirez didn't complain about damage to his eye after that round. The ONLY thing that happened in the 5th round was the one incident with the missed right and the aborted uppercut.

https://********/WMWvO6n14HU?si=aNStDPRkLyZPc24R

There's some dishonest YouTubers who have been spinning it to make it seem like the left elbow right elbow part happened in the 5th, but it didn't. That was the first round, and he got warned for those. Those two, and the incident in the 5th are the ONLY ones anyone has been able to find.

That one from the first is sketchy for sure, and if that were the one you were complaining about, as I said, I would be much more willing to give credence to your theory. But it was the first round, and it didn't make contact with the orbital, and Ramirez didn't have any damage from it.

At this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree, especially because your facts aren't even straight. Rewatch the fight again and tell me the time stamps for this alleged left right elbow combo. You won't find it in the 4th or 5th.

You're funny or your memory is failing, first round? You posted a picture of the 5th round where espinoza is using the elbows. We can't post clips no mores, but that picture your posted, in slow motion shows the right elbow hittitng Ramirez eye, the complaint and the ref admonition.

[crimsonfalcon07]

You're funny or your memory is failing, first round? You posted a picture of the 5th round where espinoza is using the elbows. We can't post clips no mores, but that picture your posted, in slow motion shows the right elbow hittitng Ramirez eye, the complaint and the ref admonition.

That's the missed right cross where Ramirez runs into his forearm... As I keep saying. He clearly misses a cross and NEVER turns the elbow out. It goes from the cross to pointed at the ground, and stays there the whole time.

There was also no left elbow right elbow combo as you claim in round 5. Unlike you, I've actually watched the fight recently. You seem to think that the incident from the first round was also in the 5th, and you seem to be getting your entire theory from dishonest YouTubers who present the 3 elbows that happen in the fight as if they're all from the same round, and as if they happen again. You're claiming that he was doing it regularly. That's patently false, unless your bar is 3 things. You think you saw something different? Prove it. Name the timestamps that they happened. You won't be able to, because there were only two instances in the entire fight, and the one you're whining about happened in the 1st round, and even Ramirez didn't think that damaged his eye. BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS, the one in 5 that may have damaged his eye wasn't deliberate. It's right there on film, right elbow pointing down at the ground, not out towards Ramirez.

If you want to believe something else, fine. That's on you. Unlike you, I've done my due diligence. I'm the one who posted pictures and video proof. You keep saying "go look at YouTube, as if that's proof." I know when the incidents happened, and which one was which. At this point, I'm beginning to think you have an agenda in spreading a false narrative, and I'm not going to respond to you further. Maybe because you're Cuban like Ramirez. Either way, I'm done with you here. Enjoy getting the last word in, as you doubtless will.

[CubanGuyNYC]

That wasn't the fifth round. The clip you are talking about is from the first round. And note that Ramirez didn't complain about damage to his eye after that round. The ONLY thing that happened in the 5th round was the one incident with the missed right and the aborted uppercut.

I tried posting the YouTube video “short” that examines the moments shown in your stills. Obviously I was unable to. In the comments section to the vid there is, unsurprisingly, division as to what actually happened. It appears to these eyes that Espinoza threw a right with a bent arm. The elbow certainly makes contact with Ramirez’s face — quite possibly on the eye, but that aspect is inconclusive. Divino follows up with a very tightly coiled left, where it’s difficult to determine if he’s attempting an uppercut, a left hook, or simply an elbow. It misses. In that moment, Robeisy jumps away to the side, as if wincing in reaction to the previous punch (elbow?). If there was any moment where an elbow fractured Ramirez’s orbital bone, this must’ve been it. I didn’t see anything else during the fight, or afterwards. I maintain that Salas should’ve complained to the ref about an elbow landing and causing double-vision. Easy to say now, in light of what happened, but it turned out to be a mistake. Below are my best attempts at screen-captures. I believe they provide reasonable support to what I stated above. Were the elbows intentional? Impossible to prove, but I believe so. Espinoza threw at least one elbow in the previous fight, and he was warned for a blatant elbow in the first round of the rematch. In round five an elbow lands on Robeisy’s face (possibly eye), and a follow-up left appears questionable. But intentional or not, the guy was all elbows and it appears to have caused the injury that stopped the fight. That should’ve caused the rematch to be ruled a no-decision. Just my take.

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[LarryMerchant'sBottle]

I tried posting the YouTube video “short” that examines the moments shown in your stills. Obviously I was unable to. In the comments section to the vid there is, unsurprisingly, division as to what actually happened. It appears to these eyes that Espinoza threw a right with a bent arm. The elbow certainly makes contact with Ramirez’s face — quite possibly on the eye, but that aspect is inconclusive. Divino follows up with a very tightly coiled left, where it’s difficult to determine if he’s attempting an uppercut, a left hook, or simply an elbow. It misses. In that moment, Robeisy jumps away to the side, as if wincing in reaction to the previous punch (elbow?). If there was any moment where an elbow fractured Ramirez’s orbital bone, this must’ve been it. I didn’t see anything else during the fight, or afterwards. I maintain that Salas should’ve complained to the ref about an elbow landing and causing double-vision. Easy to say now, in light of what happened, but it turned out to be a mistake. Below are my best attempts at screen-captures. I believe they provide reasonable support to what I stated above. Were the elbows intentional? Impossible to prove, but I believe so. Espinoza threw at least one elbow in the previous fight, and he was warned for a blatant elbow in the first round of the rematch. In round five an elbow lands on Robeisy’s face (possibly eye), and a follow-up left appears questionable. But intentional or not, the guy was all elbows and it appears to have caused the injury that stopped the fight. That should’ve caused the rematch to be ruled a no-decision. Just my take.

IMG_5605.jpg IMG_5604.jpg IMG_5611.jpg IMG_5606.jpg

Thanks for the efforts Cu****uyNYC!

I'm of the opinion that Espinoza did try to use his elbows intentionally at least twice, but I must admit that I'm not sure the stills you just posted prove the orbital fracture. When watching that minute of the round in particular, it appeared that Espinoza missed with a right cross and Ramirez leads in with his head causing Espinoza's forearm to slide along the right side of the face of Ramirezending with the elbow making contact. I don't think the elbow makes contact in a striking way though.

I don't want to call Espinoza a dirty fighter but I have to acknowledge that some of his tactics were indeed questionable. I'm a fan of Floyd and must admit that he also snuck in elbows at times. Trinidad also landed some low blows in times were he was in trouble. It's roughhousing that can be considered part of the sport. Some fighters use it more than others but I've yet to see a fighter that never landed a questionable low blow or shot..