What Is A Robbery? Devin Haney - Vasyl Lomachenko Scored By Unbaised Artificial Intelligence.

[-Kev-]

Humans judging boxing matches will need an overhaul with AI being superior to us. MLB is having the same issues with umpires calling Balls and Strikes. The majority of baseball fans want AI umpires calling balls and strikes. Because it’s more accurate (it was tested at the Minor league level).

You have to realize though, about this new technology and the possibility of using it in boxing, you’re going to get a lot of push back from a lot of people. That’s how new tech is. And that’s how we humans always react to it. Nothing new.

I’m sure there were a lot of old people who were pushing back on cars when they first came out. They wanted to ride their horses and carriages.

AI will take over a lot of things, instead of being mad about it, learn to utilize it and understand it.

[-Kev-]

Another thing i’ll add is, with all the corruption that goes on in boxing, judges aren’t going away. They’re the main source of bribes and such. If you want a fighter winning a fight, you have to talk to the judges.

With AI, probably being scored live and in viewers screens at homes, who are you going to corrupt?

I had Lomachenko clearly winning that fight. But honestly, as much as fans complain about robberies, they pick and choose which fights make them want change in scoring. This one is not it.

They say let it go, stop talking about it, etc. But make this a Mayweather-Castillo I AI video and watch difference in responses.

[Cypocryphy]

Not going to quote this time because that's too much to delete.

I used the term fanboy because you're on here saying "this is the future" and "we should all support this". That's about as textbook fanboy as it gets. No emotion, just calling it as I see it.

Uh huh, rrrrriight. lol That's your definition of fanboy? Bro. What's wrong with you? lol

If you choose to get "emotional" and take it personally, that's on you. I tend to agree with a lot of your points, but my original point here was that you're saying people are clearly being emotional, triggered, etc about the Loma fight, but factually you titled it differently than the others, which is why you're getting different responses. No need to read more into it.

So basically you're saying I made this "clickbaitish" and because of that, you don't like it. And as far as saying these guys are getting triggered, it's due to their being triggered. Okay? These are the usual suspects, some of whom will do this to anything I post because we have a storied history of butting heads.

I already said that I heard Brad Goodman rewatch this fight, saying that he thought it was a robbery but after watching it again, believed Haney won and by a lot. That in conjunction with the other fights I posted promoted me to put this up on its own. Why? Because it's interesting in light of the contemporaneous element of people rewatching the fight still or did that just completely fly over your head?

You and I do not disagree that judges are corrupt or incompetent etc. We differ in that you think this is the clear and only solution.

The clear and only solution is something different, and this program by Jabbr is making a significant stride in the right direction. In my opinion it's better than anything I've seen thus far. It's a solution or a component to a solution, and it seems to be the only serious effort to solve the egregious mistakes in boxing we continue to have to this day.

I'm curious as to why you're so resistant to even entertaining the use of an unbiased, AI to assist in the scoring of fights? It's really bizarre, which is why I believe you have another motive more making all these posts or replies to my comments.

As for the rules bit, I'm very clear on what the rules say. You're essentially doing a copy-paste from what looks like someone else's article about boxing scoring for beginners, but absent anything else. Looks like a DAZN article TBH.

You act as if I were hiding that fact. Apparently, the purpose of that flew over your head again. (Seems to happen a lot with you, I can't lie.) First, I even mentioned Weisfeld's NAME and said that's how he scores a fight. Second, I did not copy and paste, I paraphrased. Third, a beginners perspective seemed a suitable for you considering that you clearly did not know how to score a fight. Fourth, supporting what I said, which was that clean punches are the primary scoring criterium in determining a winner, with the words of a professional judge would, for the most part, shut down any rebuttal you might have. As I recall, you had said that I "seem to think that the ten point must system can be objective, and that all that matters is that it be a scoring punch." And the answer is that I did not say that's "all that matters." What I am saying, however, is that it matters more than anything else. That's what I'm saying.

And incidentally, you had said something else in your original post, which I want to address right now as it is closely related to something else you said, which I will now quote:

So third, that's the major thing you're missing here that people have tried to tell you repeatedly. I just identified an error for you-that it's not effectively weighting distraction punches vs power punches. It's doing the analysis based on speed, and not doing a good job evaluating it on impact.

When the creators of DeepStrike were asked by a viewer how it's determining the strength of the pushes or the level of impact because it seems to count everything, even questionable punches that would not be counted in a real boxing match, they responded as follows:

There are a couple of reasons for why we're just counting everything, and then add an impact estimate:

(1) There are widely different opinions and subjective thresholds as to what constitutes a "landed" punch. We don't want to make an arbitrary decision on our end where that threshold should be. So we just include everything, even Min and Low impact punches that some people might say should be counted others might say are "too small"

(2) Sustained volume of small or imperfect punches landing does tend to have an effect, and can wear a fighter down over time. Some fighters will go for landing big bombs, others go for the volume approach, most do a mix

(3) In some fights, there are very few high/max impact landed shots, and so here the Min/Low impact shots tend to play an important role in determining who should be a reasonable winner

For instance, take the criteria of "clean punching". What does it mean to land cleanly? There's already been some debate about what that means in the other threads. It's not defined objectively. What about effective?

You've already provided your own biased definition of that, but that's also not clearly defined by the rules.

My own biased definition? What? See, when you ask these questions or make these off-the-cuff remarks, it immediately informs me that you really don't know. Well, that's fine because I'm about to disabuse you of this nonsense about being biased as well as inform you what a clean strike actually entails. In as simple as a way I can explain (because it is simple), the test to measure the awarding of points for "offensive boxing" should be the number of direct, clean punches delivered with the knuckle part of the closed glove on any part of the scoring zone of the opponent's body, above the belt line.

I just gave you, right there, the most simple and concise definition as possible, and I also added some additional information for your benefit, which is "scoring zones" and "above the belt line." It does not say "on the belt line," is says "above the belt line."

You see, so many people like yourself have no clue how to score a fight, yet you and other continue to sound off as if you know what you're talking about. It really gets tiresome, I'm going to be honest, so this will be the last time I humor you with a response.

There's a lot to be said when you know a punch was hard based upon the sound of it and the way the fighter threw the punch, even if the other fighter has a great poker face and is super tough that you just can't tell otherwise. How about aggression? What does that mean? Etc. There's very little in there that's objective. I could debunk every bit of it, but it's fundamentally subjective, and that's for a reason.

Right there you are inserting your own extreme level of subjective bias in scoring a fight. In other words, and I'll paraphrase you, "he didn't flinch when that punch landed, but I know it had to hurt because we all know how hard he hits!" That right there is not how you score a fight. You have to score the fight on the "effect of the punch," not what you imagine in your own world based on the sound of the glove hitting or some other nonsense. And I can hear you right now asking, well what does "effect" even mean? It's so subjective, how can you tell what "effect" is in judging a fight?

Well, I'm glad you asked! An effective punch causes visible damage or a "damaging effect." That means that the fighters legs shake or buckle. That means that the fighter is stunned and goes on the retreat. That means that his head snaps back or that he winces when it lands on the body. There will be a response from the other fighter that is uncontrollable, which lets everyone know that he felt that punch, and the more his head snaps back or the more unsteady he becomes, the more damaging the blow. For example, a smaller fighter is landing so much that he's keeping his larger opponent's hands at home more of the time, this means the smaller fighter took away the effectiveness of the bigger boxer's heavier punches. The judge has to then weigh which had greater effect by assessing the response of each fighter to the blows. So that would mean if a fighter retreats to the ropes, the other smaller fighter is landing the more effective punches. That is effect.

Now, as far as Jabbr is concerned, the AI looks for "transfer of force" in determining the impact of the shot. That would mean that a head snapping back slightly will have a minimum or low impact value while a head snapping back significantly will have a high or maximum impact value. Additionally, with regard to body shots, the AI measures the degree of movement or leverage shown by the arm, so a body punch were the boxer's rears his arm back and lets it fly will signify a high impact value, provided that it lands "cleanly, " which means, as I previously stated, the knuckle portion of the closed glove. So the AI is measuring these various body mechanics and bodily reactions to determine the weight of the punch. It's obviously not perfect because on singular camera feeds, you will have a level of occlusion. This is why two of Loma's punches in the 11th round were not counted and one of Haney's punches in the 9th round was not counted. However, when used in a live match, Jabbr has multiple camera feeds in action so that every angle is seen and counted for near perfect data accumulation.

I hope that answers some of your questions because, as I said before, I'm not going to humor this nonsense anymore. If what I have said does not suffice to explain why this is a step int he right direction and why it's more accurate than what we have presently, or if you think I'm trolling or attacking you and still fails to understand that is not the case, then I imagine that there are other issues in your life that you are struggling with and should probably focus on those rather than speculating on my motives for making this thread.

As for why score it at all, it's because they wanted to make it look like a sport, and when they just went until someone fell down, it didn't play well with scheduling and fans, and it's hard to make money that way. So they made scores and fixed things to make it look more objective to gull people placing bets. It's never been a "real sport." It's been rife with corruption from the get-go, and it suits it, as a money making business, to have subjective rules that permit rigging matches when they want to. Often they don't need to because the match outcome is predictable based on the matchmaking.

That is your opinion. Everything can be made into a sport. There is no difference between making more baskets than the other team and landing more punches than the other man. Everyone knows who won a fight for the majority of the bouts. The judging criteria is very simple. You can make these arguments in other sports as to whether such and such was a foul or whether someone was actually offside, so people make these arguments in boxing. If you don't remember, these issues in American football and European football used to be serious issues, up until AI and video replay was introduced to determine whether a goal stands, a touchdown was made or some other game changing event occurred. This is no different for boxing. Evolution is the name of the game. We've seen it in other sports, so boxing should follow suit.

I'm not timestamping it because I'm not wasting any more time. You said you watched it carefully and didn't catch that error; that's through every match. That tells me you don't actually know what I'm looking for when I look at power delivery, and I don't want to spend the time explaining it to you. I'd be more interested if you could come to my gym and glove up and we could go over some of it so you can feel the difference in your own punches, but if you don't see the subtleties, that's fine. It's still a flaw. And I'm not the only one that's pointed that out.

First, that's not what I said. I asked you to timestamp the event so I can see what you're talking about. Second, I'm not buying this "I'm not waisting anymore time" bull**** when you have made massively long posts repeatedly in this thread, yet somehow, you can't be bothered to take a minute to timestamp an event to which you referred. As I expected. lol

I suppose that ends this. lol

[Cypocryphy]

Humans judging boxing matches will need an overhaul with AI being superior to us. MLB is having the same issues with umpires calling Balls and Strikes. The majority of baseball fans want AI umpires calling balls and strikes. Because it’s more accurate (it was tested at the Minor league level).

You have to realize though, about this new technology and the possibility of using it in boxing, you’re going to get a lot of push back from a lot of people. That’s how new tech is. And that’s how we humans always react to it. Nothing new.

I’m sure there were a lot of old people who were pushing back on cars when they first came out. They wanted to ride their horses and carriages.

AI will take over a lot of things, instead of being mad about it, learn to utilize it and understand it.

lol! yeah. I'm thought about that before. "Why should I get a Ford pickup when I have a burro?" Right?

Yeah. It's the same in all sports. Even now, people are pushing back on some of the VAR technology being used in the Premier League, which ironically, has nothing to do with VAR but with the humans using it. lol It's incredible.

But you are 1,000 percent right about this. This will be a massive fight and could take a long time to implement. But I'm 10,000 percent going to be supporting it.

[Cypocryphy]

AI this AI that but youse laugh when the bama computer had Marciano smash all the HWs and pass on title bout predictions to talk to one another instead.



Are youse too ****** to realize those are AI too?

Are youse too ****** to realize AI plugged into the internet is only impressive because youse have failed to use google worth half a ****?


Oh gee oh my, a ****ing program that can search and read its first hit at me so I have to take the exact same steps and retrieve the exact same info BUT this time instead of me reading an entirely generated page I read while it generates the text. woooo that's such an improvement over a dialog tree I don't even know how to handle it and need to go look up other versions of superficial differences I call technological gains.




Y'all ****in' dumb. I can write an AI right now that shares my own bias, dumbass. I can write one that scores exactly like I do, call it non-bias, and promote it like as if it has something to do with the **** being promoted by the media as the future other than the semantics of being able to call it AI.



The ****ing goombas in ****ing Mario is ****ing AI ya dense pricks. Worth a **** AI, ChatGPT, and the AI I wrote in my ****ty Alex Kidd/Megaman crossover game are ****ing worlds apart and what is highlighted here shares more with my punk ass than GPT.


How is it this tech that requires smarty pants of a higher caliber than whole nations can hire popping up in every single corner of the internet? Maybe, gasp, just maybe, these programmers are using the language the programmers who are so elite some entire first world nations have to just wait on what America and China come up with because the talent is bought up are not actually writing anything like what goes on in the elite programming fields but rather use the jargon so that a ****** ****er doesn't know the difference.



Boxing fans score like ****. I can write an AI. You put two and two together ya dumb **** stick.

So this guy just got banned again? lmao! Mental health crisis alert.

In all seriousness, I hope he's trying to get better.

[Cypocryphy]

You must be invested in this in someway

It needs to be implemented in lower levels for a few years first.

To just take a new technology & implement it without trying it out at the lower levels yet would be foolish.

Maybe start in the amateur ranks, then club shows, and then finally in about 5 years, we can fully implement it.

The only one who's invested is you who keeps replying to this thread, repeating yourself over and over again. It's obvious now that your turban is on that puny little head of yours too tightly. It really eats you up inside that everyone knows that Haney lost, and when people do videos on it, it just supports what the vast majority of viewers saw that night, that Loma was robbed. That's actually not the main point of this thread. It's understood that he was robbed. The point was to show how accurate the AI is in judging this fight and that it should be used in all fights.

And because you're a dumbass (oh yes you are), I will explain to you one more time. This has already been tested for years in amateur matches, whereby they use a multitude a video feeds to capture all of the action, which is what would be used in pro fights.

Apparently, this must terrify you because all your favorite boxers would end up with losses if that were to happen.

Anyway, please reply again and let me and everyone know how much this irritates you. I want to keep hearing it. It brings a smile to my face.

[W1LL]

After the fight, many rewatched it (some several times) and decided they were initially wrong, that Haney did win the fight. Just today (which is why I thought I'd make this post), I heard Brad Goodman say he scored the fight for Loma at first, but on his second time viewing, he scored it for Devin (116-112).

Do you think Goodman and others are right? What do you guys think? Was this actually a robbery?

Let's see what an unbiased, extremely accurate AI tells us ....

Additionally, I'm curious as to what the forum believes constitutes a robbery. Is it how many rounds a boxer wins and isn't given credit for? Is it how dominate he was? People seem to have different thresholds.

This Jabbr AI is epic man. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

[Cypocryphy]

This Jabbr AI is epic man. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

Absolutely. I’m really exited about this company so I’ll will be following them.

I don’t know if you got a chance but there’s the Golovkin vs Canelo II fight that I posted. I might repost it again. Two or three years ago people would have been flaming that thread but I suppose it’s been accepted that it was a robbery now.

I don’t know, let’s see. I’ll post it again.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Blah blah

You sure wrote a lot to fail to actually respond on the points...

Fanboy definition is literally "someone who is extremely or overly excited about something". What else would you call "we should all invest in this. I'm really excited about this company, etc?". Your response was "that's how you define fanboy". Yes, that's the dictionary definition of the term. What of it?

I'm not upset at the thread at all. You and I happen to agree that Loma got robbed. Also agree that Chocolatito got robbed in the second fight vs Estrada. I was pointing out that your title makes for a different motive than the other threads, thus leading to the responses you were getting.

Meanwhile you're in here telling people they're "emotional" and trying to accuse me of not knowing how to score. Pot, meet kettle. Your long response is nothing more than a laundry list of your own biased, which really just proves the point I and others have made to you. If you can't see it, that's your own problem. I'm not discussing it further with you.

Nor did you manage to respond to the reason I'm not timestamping. I am taking you on face value that you spent a lot of time watching the fights and looking for errors. Facts are that you didn't see them. You said so yourself. Me pointing out hundreds of timestamps in which it didn't do a good job measuring impact because you and the people who wrote it don't know enough about the mechanics of power is a waste of time because your skill level/knowledge just aren't there to see it in the first place. It's not the sort of thing that's easily explained over the Internet. Hence, waste of my time. If you knew what to look for, we wouldn't even be here at all.

You're right in that we're done here. I have no interest in engaging any further with an immature individual like yourself who jumps immediately to ad hominem BS when someone disagrees, and writes entire tomes while failing to engage with the actual points being made. Was trying to give a friendly heads-up to provide some perspective. Hope you have a good day nonetheless, and Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it.

[Cypocryphy]

You sure wrote a lot to fail to actually respond on the points...

That says more about your reading comprehension than my failure to respond. I wasn't going to humor this anymore, but I will make a few points.

Fanboy definition is literally "someone who is extremely or overly excited about something". What else would you call "we should all invest in this. I'm really excited about this company, etc?". Your response was "that's how you define fanboy". Yes, that's the dictionary definition of the term. What of it?

You copy and pasted Webster and Miriam's definition of that word, but should have gone further and looked up some of the words in that definition, which I have highlighted. There is nothing "extreme" or "overly" about anything I have said. If that's your definition, then that would make you a fanboy of boxing, along with everyone else on here. It would make you a fanboy in regard to everything and anything you support. That's why you don't know what that word actually means. Moving on now ....

I'm not upset at the thread at all. You and I happen to agree that Loma got robbed. Also agree that Chocolatito got robbed in the second fight vs Estrada. I was pointing out that your title makes for a different motive than the other threads, thus leading to the responses you were getting.

It actually doesn't. The whole point of my supporting innovation in the sport, that being innovation in the tools used to judge a fight, is to prevent robberies. I think you agree that there are a lot of robberies in this sport. It happens every weekend, and there are a lot of robberies that happen to the younger guys on the undercards who go in to upset the plans of these promotional companies. When they do beat these prospects, they get robbed, and then their entire future changes. The whole purpose of DeepStrike is to prevent errors in judging that result in robberies. So my titling this in the form of a question, what is a "robbery" is entirely relevant to the subject matter, that being the prevention of further robberies. In fact, you admit that much of the same fights that I call a robbery, you call a robbery. So there's no need to have issue when I allude to a fight being a robbery when that fight is actually a robbery. I wonder if I were to post Chocolotio vs Estrada 2 and ask if this were a robbery, would you have issue with that, or if I ask whether Chavez vs Whitaker were a robbery, then proceed to have the fight analyzed by AI, would you come on here and take issue. It's very strange on your part to be making these comments. (In fact, I'm actually going to repost another fight that was judged by the AI and call it a robbery.)

Meanwhile you're in here telling people they're "emotional" and trying to accuse me of not knowing how to score. Pot, meet kettle. Your long response is nothing more than a laundry list of your own biased, which really just proves the point I and others have made to you. If you can't see it, that's your own problem. I'm not discussing it further with you.

I find it really strange when a man comes on here and defends another man. Are you their knight in shining armor? What's your deal? You have some kind of emotional attachment to these guys? That's very feminine on your part. These guys can speak for themselves and don't need some fanboy of theirs to come on here and defend them. Furthermore, they are "emotional" because they are actually going on other threads of mine and making arguments about the Haney and Loma fight when these other threads have nothing to do with that fight. They are literally bringing their arguments on this thread to other threads. Now, if that's not "emotional," then I don't know what is. Like I said before, they are "triggered" because THEY ARE TRIGGERED.

Nor did you manage to respond to the reason I'm not timestamping. I am taking you on face value that you spent a lot of time watching the fights and looking for errors. Facts are that you didn't see them. You said so yourself. Me pointing out hundreds of timestamps in which it didn't do a good job measuring impact because you and the people who wrote it don't know enough about the mechanics of power is a waste of time because your skill level/knowledge just aren't there to see it in the first place. It's not the sort of thing that's easily explained over the Internet. Hence, waste of my time. If you knew what to look for, we wouldn't even be here at all.

Simply put, you won't timestamp because you can't timestamp. If you were to do so, you know that I'd make you end up looking like a dumbass. That's why you won't do it. In fact, I think you're being a JACKass for making this an issue when there's no issue. The gentlemen at Jabbr have spent years developing this, and all you have to do is listen to what others are saying who are using it to help score fights. I can understand the criticism that it doesn't catch everything because it doesn't when it uses a singular feed to assess what occurs in the ring. However, in actuality, if it were to be used, multiple cameras would be setup along the perimeter of the ring to capture everything. Even now, with a singular feed, the error rate is far less than anything else in use at the moment. If you look at Compubox, the error rate is extraordinary. You have Compubox saying boxers land punches in excess of what was even thrown in the round. How does that happen? (And incidentally, these gross errors always seem to favor the house fighter or A-side fighter.)

You're right in that we're done here. I have no interest in engaging any further with an immature individual like yourself who jumps immediately to ad hominem BS when someone disagrees, and writes entire tomes while failing to engage with the actual points being made. Was trying to give a friendly heads-up to provide some perspective. Hope you have a good day nonetheless, and Happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate it.

Yeah. Happy Thanksgiving.