Comments Thread For: Team Usyk Promoter On Latest Delay For Fury Fight: If A Fighter Is Not Willing To Go, You Cannot Make Him

[kafkod]

I just want to point something out that deals with lineal. If lineal interests you, read on, if not, **** off.


Y'all know how folks say lineal is the title going back to Sully and the traditions boxing followed prior to sanctioning bodies right?

Youse have also heard those who contend a lineal can be stripped for inactivity, drugs, by Ring, and I'm sure others that range from believable to absolutely ******, right?

You guys know the rule of 1-2 right? Where the highest rated man fights the second highest rated man to become lineal?


There is of course tradition prior to bodies, that's true, but there is no precedence for stripping a lineal for drugs or inactivity, and ring and rating didn't exist in the 1880s, but stripping a lineal champion because he refuses to fight the man the public wants him to fight, there is precedence for, actually. Putting lineal on the line for that man the public wants to see fight for lineal but the current lineal refuses, there is precedence for.


So, I am not saying Usyk is or isn't or should or shouldn't, but there is argument for it.

What is that precedent? I'm curious about that, but I'm also saying it's irrelevant in the context of modern day boxing, because nobody has the power to either strip or award lineal titles nowadays.

[kafkod]

Lineal is a dubious concept anyway. The real lineage ended with Lennox Lewis' retirement. But even that was passed under less than au****ious circumstances when Holmes beat the corpse of Ali for it. It's not really a "title" but a debatable distinction with subjective criteria for establishing a new one. The current heavyweight lineage was established when Klitschko beat Chagaev and neither the WBC or WBA titles were contested that night.

The "lineal" concept may have had some value in the 1880s, but in the modern era, it is nothing but a marketing tool for promoters and networks, and a superlative for fanboys.

[Marchegiano]

Lineal is a dubious concept anyway. The real lineage ended with Lennox Lewis' retirement. But even that was passed under less than au****ious circumstances when Holmes beat the corpse of Ali for it. It's not really a "title" but a debatable distinction with subjective criteria for establishing a new one. The current heavyweight lineage was established when Klitschko beat Chagaev and neither the WBC or WBA titles were contested that night.

I don't disagree bud, lineal doesn't mean much to me for the reasons you've listed and, to be honest, a bunch more. I'm a history nerd shoehorning history into modern boxing via lineal discussion really.

[_Rexy_]

What is that precedent? I'm curious about that, but I'm also saying it's irrelevant in the context of modern day boxing, because nobody has the power to either strip or award lineal titles nowadays.

I'm pretty sure the lineage of LHW moved from Adonis to Kovalev when Adonis wouldn't fight him. I may be wrong.

[Marchegiano]

What is that precedent? I'm curious about that, but I'm also saying it's irrelevant in the context of modern day boxing, because nobody has the power to either strip or award lineal titles nowadays.

I'm going in reverse order because the latter is easier to address than the former.

Like I just told dan, you ain't getting an argument out of me. I'd say your take on what lineal is, is pretty on point and I think it's kind of rare to see someone be honest with themselves and the world around them. It is a promotional piece these days.


As far as specific precedence my favorite is Ward-Burke. I kind of laid it out when I replied to dan-b so I guess I'll just bring in more detail but this is still off the cuff so, you know, if you want very specific details and to be absolutely sure and ****, google ****, it'll corroborate.


Jem Ward was champion, James Burke was the challenger. It's the late 1820s into the late 1830s. Ward avoided Burke to the point it became clear to the fans Ward would never share the ring with Burke. To be clear, Ward did fight a Burke just not James Deaf'un Burke, and Burke did fight a Ward but it wasn't Jem Ward.

You can look in your time if you like all the various ways Ward avoided Burke and held the title hostage, it's pretty well recorded and easy to find.

What is also pretty well recorded and easy to find is Burke not only never fought Ward to become champion, but he never beat a man who did beat Ward either, and he is recorded as the champion for a period.

The specific period is in dispute. CBZ, for example, goes with the end of a fight Ward put up featuring a man called Byrnne against Burke for the title. Burke wins and Ward refuses to hand over the title claiming he's still champion. Byrnne was Ward's student. Newspapers in America and England at the time go with Burke being crowned champion when he defeated a man called O'Rourke in America. O'Rourke was the Irish champion.

Either way, no matter where you look Burke is considered the HW champion some time after Ward. 1832, 33, 37, 39, all fine dates, no one really agrees exactly when, but everyone seems to agree Burke was the next champion after Ward despite having not fought him, him still being active, him still claiming the title, and having not beaten a man to beat him, Burke is considered the next champion by historians and contemporary sources.


So, yeah, lineal, pos title, but if Usyk wants it without fighting Fury he can get it. If fans decide they like Usyk as lineal that's all that really matters anyway, but also, it would not be entirely unprecedented

[crimsonfalcon07]

I didn’t know there was injury on Usyk’s side. Now that’s come to light then if Fury wouldn’t budge on the date then that would be him at fault.

That's a lie. You posted on the thread about his injuries saying you thought Usyk didn't want the fight.

But is there an injury or not? You said it’s fake news so which one is it?

The fake news is what you keep making up. You said that Usyk was making a hard line about the date. He was asking for proof of injury AS CONTRACTUALLY REQUIRED in order to move off the date. Which also provides Fury with an out for the potential lawsuit he's facing. That's not even a little bit the same as what you were claiming.

Then you claimed that Usyk was refusing to move the date, which wasn't true to begin with, in an article about how they've already agreed to move the date. Fake news. That's you lying. I get the impression you don't even read the articles before you come in to bash Usyk.

If Fury is bashed up from his fight with Ngannou and Usyk doesn’t budge on the date by a month - Usyk’s fault.

Usyk was never "refusing to budge on the date." His team just said Fury needed to provide proof of injury in order to move the fight. Why is that so hard for you to understand. "Provide proof and we can move the date" is not the same as "Usyk must fight me Dec 23, he has no choice". Fury is the ONLY ONE who refused to budge.

You are so inconsistent on the matter that one minute you say Usyk is injured therefore the date should be moved

I have never said the date should be moved to suit Usyk. You, on the other hand, have been caught lying several times. I've just called you on your lies. Facts are that you have blamed Usyk EVERY time, and you've lied about it. Can't even face the truth.

[IronDanHamza]

That's a lie. You posted on the thread about his injuries saying you thought Usyk didn't want the fight.

I literally said I didn't know about the injuries to which you then said he's injured that's why he wasn't keen on that date.

Now you're saying he wasn't injured.

The fake news is what you keep making up. You said that Usyk was making a hard line about the date. He was asking for proof of injury AS CONTRACTUALLY REQUIRED in order to move off the date. Which also provides Fury with an out for the potential lawsuit he's facing. That's not even a little bit the same as what you were claiming.

Then you claimed that Usyk was refusing to move the date, which wasn't true to begin with, in an article about how they've already agreed to move the date. Fake news. That's you lying. I get the impression you don't even read the articles before you come in to bash Usyk.

I never said that, I said IF he is insists on moving the date because that was what was being implied. If he's not insistent on moving the date then there's no issue.

Usyk was never "refusing to budge on the date." His team just said Fury needed to provide proof of injury in order to move the fight. Why is that so hard for you to understand. "Provide proof and we can move the date" is not the same as "Usyk must fight me Dec 23, he has no choice". Fury is the ONLY ONE who refused to budge.

Again, I said if he does, not that he has.

Asking for proof of injury is another example of them playing games because they know full well he's not injured and just got bashed up that's why he can't fight on that date. You're ok with that little media game, just not when it's the other side doing it.

I have never said the date should be moved to suit Usyk. You, on the other hand, have been caught lying several times. I've just called you on your lies. Facts are that you have blamed Usyk EVERY time, and you've lied about it. Can't even face the truth.

Not lied once.

Once all the facts were presented to me regarding the Fury-Usyk negotiations for this year I was very clear on my position that Fury was more at fault than Usyk. I have made that abundantly clear multiple times that my position is Fury is the one to blame for that breakdown and not Usyk, despite his share of media nonsense as well.

So you're just talking shit basically. It's only you that only calls out or puts any blame on one side and changes that narrative as you go along. One minute he's injured next minute he's not, etc.

[kafkod]

I'm pretty sure the lineage of LHW moved from Adonis to Kovalev when Adonis wouldn't fight him. I may be wrong.

I guess it depends who you ask, which illustrates how problematic lineal titles claims are nowadays.

The lineal LHW title was very, very important during the Stevenson/Kovalev rivalry, while Adonis was busy defending his WBC title against a succession of scrubs. It mysteriously ceased to matter after Stevenson lost to Gvozdyk. Though I have seen a few people calling Berterbiev the lineal champ in Beterbiev vs Bivol discussions. I've also seen Andre Ward fans claiming that Andre became the lineal champ by defeating Kovalev. Like I said, it depends who you ask.

[crimsonfalcon07]

I literally said I didn't know about the injuries to which you then said he's injured that's why he wasn't keen on that date.

Now you're saying he wasn't injured.

Proof is already there for everyone to see, out of your own mouth.
Now you're making things up again. I have not said that Usyk isn't injured. You just make things up. You've been convicted from your own posts. I notice you can't do the same, because you're just lying again.

I never said that, I said IF he is insists on moving the date because that was what was being implied. If he's not insistent on moving the date then there's no issue.
Again, I said if he does, not that he has.

Yet again, you blamed Usyk in a thread saying "in order to move the date you have to present proof of injury" as contractually required. That's literally laying out the process to follow in order to move the date. NOT saying "we insist on not moving the date."

Being insistent in not moving the date looks like "Usyk has to fight me on December 23, he has no choice."

The fact that you STILL haven't even responded to any of these points says you have no intention of engaging honestly.

Asking for proof of injury is another example of them playing games because they know full well he's not injured and just got bashed up that's why he can't fight on that date. You're ok with that little media game, just not when it's the other side doing it.

You still don't see the difference between them. Haven't even tried. Pathetic.

For that matter, if he's just bashed up and not seriously injured, then he's in breach of his contract with the Saudis. If everyone knows that full well, and he's got a contract requiring him to fight Usyk on December 23, with the only out being proof of serious injury, he's in deep trouble, and not with Usyk. There's a ton of sources out there suggesting he's at major risk of a £200 million lawsuit from the Saudis. That's not Usyk causing him problems. In fact, Usyk's team being willing to be flexible may be the only thing saving him from that lawsuit. With the Saudis, could even be worse.

More things you don't know and haven't bothered to find out before blaming Usyk. Multiple reports say the Saudis put together a six month sports festival revolving around the undisputed fight on Dec 23. Fury's screwing around and falling to properly deliver in the Ngannou fight puts all those arrangements at jeopardy. Do you think the Saudis are likely to let him push them around? That's got f*-all to do with Usyk, and everything to do with his own BS coming home to roost.

Once all the facts were presented to me regarding the Fury-Usyk negotiations for this year I was very clear on my position that Fury was more at fault than Usyk. I have made that abundantly clear multiple times that my position is Fury is the one to blame for that breakdown and not Usyk, despite his share of media nonsense as well.

I went back and looked at several of those threads about the previous fights. You either didn't post in them or you blamed Usyk. The fact that you don't do your due diligence and blame Usyk and have to be corrected doesn't do you any favors. That's your pattern. Blame the Ukrainian, lie about it, get called on your BS, and then pretend you didn't do it in the first place. As you did in this thread. You have to have things presented to you repeatedly. This thread is about an article that literally says that they're willing to be flexible and move the date, and your first post was saying that they were being inflexible and refusing to move the date, WHICH WAS NEVER TRUE.

I'm done with your BS and lies here. It's pathetic.

[dan-b]

Proof is already there for everyone to see, out of your own mouth.
Now you're making things up again. I have not said that Usyk isn't injured. You just make things up. You've been convicted from your own posts. I notice you can't do the same, because you're just lying again.



Yet again, you blamed Usyk in a thread saying "in order to move the date you have to present proof of injury" as contractually required. That's literally laying out the process to follow in order to move the date. NOT saying "we insist on not moving the date."

Being insistent in not moving the date looks like "Usyk has to fight me on December 23, he has no choice."

The fact that you STILL haven't even responded to any of these points says you have no intention of engaging honestly.



You still don't see the difference between them. Haven't even tried. Pathetic.

For that matter, if he's just bashed up and not seriously injured, then he's in breach of his contract with the Saudis. If everyone knows that full well, and he's got a contract requiring him to fight Usyk on December 23, with the only out being proof of serious injury, he's in deep trouble, and not with Usyk. There's a ton of sources out there suggesting he's at major risk of a £200 million lawsuit from the Saudis. That's not Usyk causing him problems. In fact, Usyk's team being willing to be flexible may be the only thing saving him from that lawsuit. With the Saudis, could even be worse.

More things you don't know and haven't bothered to find out before blaming Usyk. Multiple reports say the Saudis put together a six month sports festival revolving around the undisputed fight on Dec 23. Fury's screwing around and falling to properly deliver in the Ngannou fight puts all those arrangements at jeopardy. Do you think the Saudis are likely to let him push them around? That's got f*-all to do with Usyk, and everything to do with his own BS coming home to roost.



I went back and looked at several of those threads about the previous fights. You either didn't post in them or you blamed Usyk. The fact that you don't do your due diligence and blame Usyk and have to be corrected doesn't do you any favors. That's your pattern. Blame the Ukrainian, lie about it, get called on your BS, and then pretend you didn't do it in the first place. As you did in this thread. You have to have things presented to you repeatedly. This thread is about an article that literally says that they're willing to be flexible and move the date, and your first post was saying that they were being inflexible and refusing to move the date, WHICH WAS NEVER TRUE.

I'm done with your BS and lies here. It's pathetic.

You're talking to a guy who's in denial about how in love with Fury he is. He spends an enormous amount of time defending him. I can't imagine what would motivate a supposed boxing fan to defend a fat edgelord who's used boxing as a grift for his family for years. It's boring and I'm looking forward to him permanently retiring.