Comments Thread For: Team Usyk Promoter On Latest Delay For Fury Fight: If A Fighter Is Not Willing To Go, You Cannot Make Him

[kafkod]

I'm going in reverse order because the latter is easier to address than the former.

Like I just told dan, you ain't getting an argument out of me. I'd say your take on what lineal is, is pretty on point and I think it's kind of rare to see someone be honest with themselves and the world around them. It is a promotional piece these days.


As far as specific precedence my favorite is Ward-Burke. I kind of laid it out when I replied to dan-b so I guess I'll just bring in more detail but this is still off the cuff so, you know, if you want very specific details and to be absolutely sure and ****, google ****, it'll corroborate.


Jem Ward was champion, James Burke was the challenger. It's the late 1820s into the late 1830s. Ward avoided Burke to the point it became clear to the fans Ward would never share the ring with Burke. To be clear, Ward did fight a Burke just not James Deaf'un Burke, and Burke did fight a Ward but it wasn't Jem Ward.

You can look in your time if you like all the various ways Ward avoided Burke and held the title hostage, it's pretty well recorded and easy to find.

What is also pretty well recorded and easy to find is Burke not only never fought Ward to become champion, but he never beat a man who did beat Ward either, and he is recorded as the champion for a period.

The specific period is in dispute. CBZ, for example, goes with the end of a fight Ward put up featuring a man called Byrnne against Burke for the title. Burke wins and Ward refuses to hand over the title claiming he's still champion. Byrnne was Ward's student. Newspapers in America and England at the time go with Burke being crowned champion when he defeated a man called O'Rourke in America. O'Rourke was the Irish champion.

Either way, no matter where you look Burke is considered the HW champion some time after Ward. 1832, 33, 37, 39, all fine dates, no one really agrees exactly when, but everyone seems to agree Burke was the next champion after Ward despite having not fought him, him still being active, him still claiming the title, and having not beaten a man to beat him, Burke is considered the next champion by historians and contemporary sources.


So, yeah, lineal, pos title, but if Usyk wants it without fighting Fury he can get it. If fans decide they like Usyk as lineal that's all that really matters anyway, but also, it would not be entirely unprecedented

Interesting info. But the lineal title Fury and his fans lay claim to only goes back as far as John L Sullivan, the first world champion of the gloved era.

"I don't give a fuck about title belts. I've got the only title that matters. I'm the lineal champion, the man who beat the man in an unbroken line going all the way back to John L Sullivan, a hundred years ago ... blah, blah, blah ..."

I guess that, back in the days before sanctioning organizations with universally acknowledged championship belts and legally backed rules, lineage was important because it was the only way to establish who the champ was at any given time.

Usyk has said that he doesn't care whether people call him the lineal champion or not. He just wants to win all the championship belts.

[dan-b]

Interesting info. But the lineal title Fury and his fans lay claim to only goes back as far as John L Sullivan, the first world champion of the gloved era.

"I don't give a fuck about title belts. I've got the only title that matters. I'm the lineal champion, the man who beat the man in an unbroken line going all the way back to John L Sullivan, a hundred years ago ... blah, blah, blah ..."

I guess that, back in the days before sanctioning organizations with universally acknowledged championship belts and legally backed rules, lineage was important because it was the only way to establish who the champ was at any given time.

Usyk has said that he doesn't care whether people call him the lineal champion or not. He just wants to win all the championship belts.

Fury's lineage only goes back as far as Klitschko - Chagaev.

[IronDanHamza]

You're talking to a guy who's in denial about how in love with Fury he is. He spends an enormous amount of time defending him. I can't imagine what would motivate a supposed boxing fan to defend a fat edgelord who's used boxing as a grift for his family for years. It's boring and I'm looking forward to him permanently retiring.

Oh yeah I'm lying about it I'm far from a fan of Fury I hate to burst this weird bubble of a narrative you've got going.

I just call it as I see it, I'm not a fan of Fury I legitimately can't make that more clear.

I think he's a quality fighter and enjoyed his redemption story, massively turned me off when he started talking nonsense about fighting for free, giving his purse away to charity in an obvious lie, saying he doesn't care about money whilst simultaneously asking for 500 million for his comeback and giving bogus deadlines on fights in the media.

I'm on here criticizing all of things. Amongst many others; Klitshcko rematch another example, avoiding David Price another one. There's a plethora.

And, on top of all of that, after originally holding Usyk to blame for the Fury breakdown, once I got to the bottom of all of the facts I literally held my hands up, went back on my position and conceded that Fury was more to blame by quite a margin in a thread that you yourself were in.

To consider me in love with the guy is just comical to be honest. In went to Vegas for Fury-Wilder 2 and was picking and rooting for Wilder

[IronDanHamza]

Proof is already there for everyone to see, out of your own mouth.
Now you're making things up again. I have not said that Usyk isn't injured. You just make things up. You've been convicted from your own posts. I notice you can't do the same, because you're just lying again.

So he is injured now? Ok. Others are saying he's not. Why was he pushing for the 23rd then if he's injured?

Yet again, you blamed Usyk in a thread saying "in order to move the date you have to present proof of injury" as contractually required. That's literally laying out the process to follow in order to move the date. NOT saying "we insist on not moving the date."

Being insistent in not moving the date looks like "Usyk has to fight me on December 23, he has no choice."

The fact that you STILL haven't even responded to any of these points says you have no intention of engaging honestly.

Because asking to present proof of injury is games. They know he isn't injured.

For that matter, if he's just bashed up and not seriously injured, then he's in breach of his contract with the Saudis. If everyone knows that full well, and he's got a contract requiring him to fight Usyk on December 23, with the only out being proof of serious injury, he's in deep trouble, and not with Usyk. There's a ton of sources out there suggesting he's at major risk of a £200 million lawsuit from the Saudis. That's not Usyk causing him problems. In fact, Usyk's team being willing to be flexible may be the only thing saving him from that lawsuit. With the Saudis, could even be worse.

More things you don't know and haven't bothered to find out before blaming Usyk. Multiple reports say the Saudis put together a six month sports festival revolving around the undisputed fight on Dec 23. Fury's screwing around and falling to properly deliver in the Ngannou fight puts all those arrangements at jeopardy. Do you think the Saudis are likely to let him push them around? That's got f*-all to do with Usyk, and everything to do with his own BS coming home to roost.

I've seen nothing to suggest that he'd get sued by them for not fighting on that date.

Is it signed for that date? I don't know if it is or isn't but even if it were, fights get postponed all the time and I'm sure everyone on board would be in agreement after Fury's fight there's no choice but to postpone it.

I went back and looked at several of those threads about the previous fights. You either didn't post in them or you blamed Usyk. The fact that you don't do your due diligence and blame Usyk and have to be corrected doesn't do you any favors. That's your pattern. Blame the Ukrainian, lie about it, get called on your BS, and then pretend you didn't do it in the first place. As you did in this thread. You have to have things presented to you repeatedly. This thread is about an article that literally says that they're willing to be flexible and move the date, and your first post was saying that they were being inflexible and refusing to move the date, WHICH WAS NEVER TRUE.

I'm done with your BS and lies here. It's pathetic.

Blame the Ukrainian Oh you're implying it's because he's from Ukraine now? Are you from Ukraine? Would make total sense if you are with this overly emotional response.

Well yeah that's called dialogue and debate mate. That's usually how they go, people go back and forth and offer clarity on certain things and then come to a common ground, sometimes, believe it or not, concede they were wrong like I did with Fury-Usyk negotiations. I don't know why that's an issue to you.

I have not lied once you clown. I've got things wrong yes, admittedly but I haven't lied.

[Marchegiano]

Interesting info. But the lineal title Fury and his fans lay claim to only goes back as far as John L Sullivan, the first world champion of the gloved era.

"I don't give a fuck about title belts. I've got the only title that matters. I'm the lineal champion, the man who beat the man in an unbroken line going all the way back to John L Sullivan, a hundred years ago ... blah, blah, blah ..."

I guess that, back in the days before sanctioning organizations with universally acknowledged championship belts and legally backed rules, lineage was important because it was the only way to establish who the champ was at any given time.

Usyk has said that he doesn't care whether people call him the lineal champion or not. He just wants to win all the championship belts.

Oh, well, I guess that is fair, but likewise, a fair response would be Corbett-Maher-Fitz-Sharkey-Jeffries is actually the lineage.

To the other, No, before sanction bodies no one really cared about lineage. You didn't even have to be the man who beat the man, you could get elected to champion and ****. It was more focused on figuring out who the best alive was. It's more a hindsight thing. Historians put a lot of stock in lineage. The actual contemporaries just disputed, a lot.




I think the idea you have John L's title while the Smithsonian has the actual belt shows the kind of mental gymnastics it takes to put stock in lineal.

[kafkod]

Oh, well, I guess that is fair, but likewise, a fair response would be Corbett-Maher-Fitz-Sharkey-Jeffries is actually the lineage.

To the other, No, before sanction bodies no one really cared about lineage. You didn't even have to be the man who beat the man, you could get elected to champion and ****. It was more focused on figuring out who the best alive was. It's more a hindsight thing. Historians put a lot of stock in lineage. The actual contemporaries just disputed, a lot.




I think the idea you have John L's title while the Smithsonian has the actual belt shows the kind of mental gymnastics it takes to put stock in lineal.

That's why I don't put any stock in it.

[kafkod]

Fury's lineage only goes back as far as Klitschko - Chagaev.

True. But "I beat the man who beat Ruslan Chagaev" doesn't have the same ring to it.

[IronDanHamza]

True. But "I beat the man who beat Ruslan Chagaev" doesn't have the same ring to it.

I guess if Fury and Usyk do fight then that will be a certified new lineage, if anything else.

Realistically, I don't think someone can retire for 2-3 years and then still claim a lineage like Fury has claimed.

It's a difficult one. By the same logic Lewis could comeback now and claim he's the Lineal Champion.

[kafkod]

I guess if Fury and Usyk do fight then that will be a certified new lineage, if anything else.

Realistically, I don't think someone can retire for 2-3 years and then still claim a lineage like Fury has claimed.

It's a difficult one. By the same logic Lewis could comeback now and claim he's the Lineal Champion.

Lennox and Vitali were teasing coming back to fight each other again a year or 3 back. That would have given the Lineal Championship fans something to think about.