I doubt Usyk would be 2 division champion in any other era

[The D3vil]

Vlad has been undefeated champion for about 10 years before Fury beat him. Learn something casual.

Because it was a terrible era, genius.

Usyk is a hall of famer, which inherently makes him better than any of the detritis that either Klitschko beat.

Name one of Klit's opponents that Usyk wouldn't beat?

[NEETzschean]

Vitali had a heart the size of a pea. He literally asked to be pulled out of that fight because his shoulder was hurting

look at so many great warriors over the years, right up until recently with Fury and Wilder knocking each other senseless, can you imagine them asking their corner to stop the fight because of a bad shoulder? Wilder proved was willing to go out of the fight flat on his face rather than his corner stop a fight..let alone ASK his corner to stop it. That's a real warrior.

I saw Danny Williams fight on with his arm literally out of its socket and win

Not heavyweight but George Groves schooled Eubank with one arm for a round with one of the worst shoulder dislocations you will see.

But big bad Vitali asked to stop the fight because of sore shoulder.

Vitali wouldn't have the heart or minerals to beat the likes of Usyk or Fury who take fighters to deep waters and test their mentality.

Yes. Vitali had a very good chin but he's massively overrated, especially relative to more modern fighters.

Facts about Vitali

- Made his pro debut at 25, having had 210 amateur boxing bouts and been a world kickboxing champion prior to that

- Lost to his 2nd best opponent: underpowered, 6’, 211 lbs, southpaw slickster Byrd, in Germany, made no attempt to avenge the quitjob loss

- Taken 12 rounds for the first time by his tallest opponent: 6’7, 253 lbs, Sprott-victim Hoffmann, in Germany, the best super-heavyweight that Vitali beat

- Lost to his best opponent: 6’5, 257 lbs, champion Lewis, in America, a rare instance where Vitali was the B-side and underdog

- Game domestic level fighters 270 lbs Williams and 225 lbs Sosnowski were able to take Vitali’s power and volume until the 8th and 10th rounds respectively

- Taken 12 rounds by 243 lbs spoiler Kevin Johnson, in Switzerland and by 262 lbs Briggs, in Germany

- Taken 12 rounds in his hardest and most competitive win (211-163 punches landed according to Compubox) against a determined 241 lbs Chisora, in Germany

- 0 KD’s across 6 fights and 63 rounds against Byrd, Hoffmann, Lewis, Kevin, Briggs and Chisora

- Only active for 1657 days (39%) of the 4235 days that constituted the Klitschko era

- Wanted a shot at Lewis ahead of Wlad, advised Wlad to retire post-Brewster 1 and claimed that he told Wlad not to go for the KO against Joshua after Wlad dropped him in round 6

[Dolor]

Especially this version of Fury, stylistically this 20 + pounds Heavier version of Fury compared to 'The Riddler' 2015, this current version of Fury is a better stylistic match up for Usyk.

Agreed. The awkward version of Fury that fought Wlad and Wilder 1 would be a much bigger problem for Usyk.

[deathofaclown]

Agreed. The awkward version of Fury that fought Wlad and Wilder 1 would be a much bigger problem for Usyk.

Actually it's the opposite in my opinion

It's very hard for these big heavyweight to "box" with cruiserweights, no matter how good the heavyweight is. There's quite a big difference in speed and agility between cruisers and heavyweights that becomes apparent when you watch them come up against big heavyweights.

That's why the likes of AJ were very naive to think they could box with Usyk. Even look at Hunter, his best wins were against bigger heavyweights, because they made the naive mistake of thinking they could box and jab with him like they do normal heavyweights.

The best thing Fury has ever done to prepare for Usyk without knowing it was the cunningham fight. He spend 6 rounds trying to box with a much smaller man, realised its not easy, then just bullied him instead and had him out of there in 7. Now he knows he has to bully Usyk from round 1 and that what he will do.

Fury was telling AJ he needs to get in there and take it to Usyk from round one, why? Because he knows that's what you HAVE to do, trying to outfox and outbox a more agile smaller man is giving them what they want.

Why do you think a shot Chisora gave Usyk a harder time than most fighters? Because he fully understands not to box with him.

Usyk won't have ever experienced anything like what Fury can bring. He can dog fight, maul, smother and pressure you for 12 rounds with that size. Fury won't playing tip tap jab boxing with him...

[QueensburyRules]

Klitschko bros were beating cruiserweights like nothing.

Usyk was born in the right era. There is nobody around except some English bums, one Croat, fat Mexican - American and old Chinese guy.

Usyk is a lucky man. Big guys would beat him badly in any other era.

- - Y U let U get beat up every year from Nursery School forward?

Sissy?

[elfag]

Usyk is only champ because AJ never fought WIlder or Fury


AJ only became champ because Wlad was 41 years old and they exchanged knockdowns before he finally put geriatric Wlad out to pasture. Lets see what either AJ or Wlad look like at 41 years old.

[elfag]

Actually it's the opposite in my opinion

It's very hard for these big heavyweight to "box" with cruiserweights, no matter how good the heavyweight is. There's quite a big difference in speed and agility between cruisers and heavyweights that becomes apparent when you watch them come up against big heavyweights.

That's why the likes of AJ were very naive to think they could box with Usyk. Even look at Hunter, his best wins were against bigger heavyweights, because they made the naive mistake of thinking they could box and jab with him like they do normal heavyweights.

The best thing Fury has ever done to prepare for Usyk without knowing it was the cunningham fight. He spend 6 rounds trying to box with a much smaller man, realised its not easy, then just bullied him instead and had him out of there in 7. Now he knows he has to bully Usyk from round 1 and that what he will do.

Fury was telling AJ he needs to get in there and take it to Usyk from round one, why? Because he knows that's what you HAVE to do, trying to outfox and outbox a more agile smaller man is giving them what they want.

Why do you think a shot Chisora gave Usyk a harder time than most fighters? Because he fully understands not to box with him.

Usyk won't have ever experienced anything like what Fury can bring. He can dog fight, maul, smother and pressure you for 12 rounds with that size. Fury won't playing tip tap jab boxing with him...

This, this is why fury will crush Usyk. Fury has two options, he can box on the outside with his reach or he can pressure you and use his size and fight inside. So Fury has two options in the fight. Usyk has basically 1 main option for the fight and that is to dart in and out of range for 12 rounds, hope he is never dropped and hope he can out land Fury. Sure he can make micro adjustments but he only has one option. Fury has two options if things dont go his way.

Walking Usyk down is obviously the way to go BUT lets say something happened, lets say he cant cut off the ring for some reason (doubt with his giant legs his strides are long and he is quick for his size) then he can go option 2 which is to box Usyk with his reach and Usyk has even more ground to cover with Fury darting in and out of range.

[elfag]

Yes. Vitali had a very good chin but he's massively overrated, especially relative to more modern fighters.

Facts about Vitali

- Made his pro debut at 25, having had 210 amateur boxing bouts and been a world kickboxing champion prior to that

- Lost to his 2nd best opponent: underpowered, 6’, 211 lbs, southpaw slickster Byrd, in Germany, made no attempt to avenge the quitjob loss

- Taken 12 rounds for the first time by his tallest opponent: 6’7, 253 lbs, Sprott-victim Hoffmann, in Germany, the best super-heavyweight that Vitali beat

- Lost to his best opponent: 6’5, 257 lbs, champion Lewis, in America, a rare instance where Vitali was the B-side and underdog

- Game domestic level fighters 270 lbs Williams and 225 lbs Sosnowski were able to take Vitali’s power and volume until the 8th and 10th rounds respectively

- Taken 12 rounds by 243 lbs spoiler Kevin Johnson, in Switzerland and by 262 lbs Briggs, in Germany

- Taken 12 rounds in his hardest and most competitive win (211-163 punches landed according to Compubox) against a determined 241 lbs Chisora, in Germany

- 0 KD’s across 6 fights and 63 rounds against Byrd, Hoffmann, Lewis, Kevin, Briggs and Chisora

- Only active for 1657 days (39%) of the 4235 days that constituted the Klitschko era

- Wanted a shot at Lewis ahead of Wlad, advised Wlad to retire post-Brewster 1 and claimed that he told Wlad not to go for the KO against Joshua after Wlad dropped him in round 6

Wlad had the better resume and better longevity but Vitali had the things that Wlad didnt and vice versa. Vitali had better chin and better stamina. He had a tricky defense with better head movement. His leg movement looked robotic probably from different injuries but his upper body movement was pretty slick. He also didnt fold under pressure the way Wlad did, when Wlad got pressured he panicked, you see the same thing in AJ. Vitali kept his cool when Sanders was trying to take his head off.

Wlad got a lot "better" after Steward got him and made his adjustments, really taught him to hold on more and to use the jab more before letting the right hand go.... made fights safer for wlad but also made him a lot more boring to watch for fans.

If you combined the best attributes of both brothers that would have been a pretty amazing fighter.

[JakeTheBoxer]

Usyk is only champ because AJ never fought WIlder or Fury


AJ only became champ because Wlad was 41 years old and they exchanged knockdowns before he finally put geriatric Wlad out to pasture. Lets see what either AJ or Wlad look like at 41 years old.

AJ fought Wlad because Fury ducked Wlad rematch, at first place.

[PRINCEKOOL]

Actually it's the opposite in my opinion

It's very hard for these big heavyweight to "box" with cruiserweights, no matter how good the heavyweight is. There's quite a big difference in speed and agility between cruisers and heavyweights that becomes apparent when you watch them come up against big heavyweights.

That's why the likes of AJ were very naive to think they could box with Usyk. Even look at Hunter, his best wins were against bigger heavyweights, because they made the naive mistake of thinking they could box and jab with him like they do normal heavyweights.

The best thing Fury has ever done to prepare for Usyk without knowing it was the cunningham fight. He spend 6 rounds trying to box with a much smaller man, realised its not easy, then just bullied him instead and had him out of there in 7. Now he knows he has to bully Usyk from round 1 and that what he will do.

Fury was telling AJ he needs to get in there and take it to Usyk from round one, why? Because he knows that's what you HAVE to do, trying to outfox and outbox a more agile smaller man is giving them what they want.

Why do you think a shot Chisora gave Usyk a harder time than most fighters? Because he fully understands not to box with him.

Usyk won't have ever experienced anything like what Fury can bring. He can dog fight, maul, smother and pressure you for 12 rounds with that size. Fury won't playing tip tap jab boxing with him...

It is difficult for these super heavyweights from this era, because they are not as good as past great Super Heavyweights. Usyk is not out boxing Wladimir Kiltschko, Lennox Lewis or Vitali Kiltschko in my opinion 'There is a very limited chance, that Usyk out competes Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Kiltschko with his mid-long range game'.

But so far within this era of Super Heavyweights, Usyk has been able compete with his jab against these Super Heavyweights.

David Haye at is peak was faster had more athleticism and power than Usyk 'Most likely also had a better defense, Kiltschko had no real issue's of out boxing him'.

Fury is innately a clumsy fighter, it was Peter Fury who refined these drawbacks of his game 'And for a period of time, Fury was showing signs of being a really high level pure boxer as The Riddler'. Since leaving Peter Fury, I think Fury's clumsiness has returned back to default levels 'And when and if he actually fights another World to Elite level boxer this will become apparent'.

If it is not already apparent now? Wilder is not decking or dropping Fury 5 times in 2015.

It has been 7-8 years since the Kiltschko fight. Fury's long range to mid range game has decreased, speed decreased, overall conditioning and endurance in my opinion has also decreased 'Fury has not been able to actually out box any fighter at World and Elite level for 7-8 years'.

The objective facts of his resume since Kiltschko, is that Fury has produced no technical master classes against any other technically elite or world level pure boxers 'None'.

Fury has fought non technical boxers, and yes he has out boxed them 'But for me that does not really prove much'. Fury has fought elite level fights in terms of magnitude but skill for skill, Wilder although I rate him extremely highly within this era 'Wilder is not a elite level boxer technically'.

Note: The Riddler version of Tyson Fury, which is the version of Fury that started to rise up right about the time 'Of the Martin Rogan fight'. Before that fight the universal boxing perception of Fury, was that he was game, aggressive but a clumsy fighter 'Then suddenly Fury appeared against Rogan, Fury started to show signs of high level boxing ability'.

Fury was switch hitting, he was not getting hit, and he was controlling distance 'Fury was fighting like a classical Super Heavyweight'. Fury's speed was also greater than it is now.

The Riddler Fury 2015 'Nobody really knows the upper capabilities and limits of that version of Fury'. Very much in the same way that we never saw Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson, really have the opportunity to push the upper limits of their peak 'Due to the trails and tribulations that happened in their boxing careers, and how they also like Fury disappeared from the sport for years'.

This version of Fury we see today for me is a easier fight for Usyk stylistically than 'The Riddler 2015'. It is easier in the sense that, we can all see how Usyk can win this fight vs Fury.

The only people that seem to not be able to conceive Usyk winning 'Are the people who think Fury, is still 246-248 pounds. People who still believe he is The Riddler'. Fury still has shades of The Riddler, but Fury has suppressed this style.

There is no way, that in 2015 if the time lines were different 'There is no way, that masses of boxing fans, former fighters and analysis would be saying? That Usyk can beat Tyson Fury by out boxing him'.

When Evander Holyfield come up against Rid**** Bowe 'It was almost immediately accepted that Holyfield will have to find his way around, Rid**** Bowe and the Super Heavyweight conundrum'.

Holyfield understood that he may have difficulty in out boxing Rid**** Bowe 'So he will have to be creative and work his way around this challenge'.

Inside Game, Rough House Game, Ambush assault game, body attack 'This is how Evander Holyfield negated the Super Heavyweight so called dimensional advantages'.

And to Holyfield's credit he even achieved that vs Lennox Lewis in their rematch, he made that fight a much closer fight than the first fight.

When Usyk fought Joshua, everyone stated that Joshua made a mistake in fighting Usyk at his own game twice. But what really happened is? Usyk actually beat Joshua at what should of been his own game twice.

The advice that was given to Joshua leading up to his rematch with Usyk 'Was to essentially fortified his greater range, don't care about controlling the distance. And just fight this guy on the inside, and impose you increased mass' Because you are not going to out box Usyk.

Anthony Joshua is Super Heavyweight, Olympic Champion with punching power 'That was the advice he was being given by the boxing World against a non Super Heavyweight and former Cruiser weight in Uysk'.

Lets go back 20 years, nobody would be giving that advice to Lennox Lewis before fighting Evander Holyfiled or Mike Tyson.

Lets go back 10-15 years, nobody would be giving Wladimir Kiltschko that advice before fighting David Haye.

This is what I mean, when I say? The Super Heavyweights of this era, are not on the level of past great Super Heavyweights.

I rate Usyk, he is the most accomplished active fighter in the game 'But he would not be a difficult fight for Wladimir Kiltschko or Lennox Lewis to prepare for, they would know exactly how to fight him. They would fight him with the classical big man styled fight, which is: Solid Jab, Movement, Long Range to Mid Rang game, and then when the fighter tries to go on the offense and attack? Disrupt their work by wrestling them on the inside, and then pushing them away' Round after round this would be the type of action Usyk would encounter.

No Heavyweight so far has been able to put Usyk in that situation 'That is why the universal advice given to all of his challengers, is to impose their inside game and Super Heavyweight brute strength' It is unprecedented, Super Heavyweights are just accepting that they won't be able to out box at former Cruiser-weight 'And they are forfeiting all of their dimensional advantages'.

No Heavyweight in the 90's was given the universal advice to impose their inside game vs Evander Holyfield or Mike Tyson. Because Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson had highly developed inside games.

For all of Usyk's abilities, for all of his feats of achievements. Usyk has never shown, that he has a sophisticated and a elite level inside game. Usyk has pretty much won all of his fights with his mid-long range game.

Note: That is why I personally believe that 'The Riddler 2015 version of Fury'. Would of been stylistically a more difficult fight for Uysk to prepare for. Because that version of Fury, his intention was? To out box his opponent with his mid to long range game 'And this type of fight would force Usyk to show another area of his game, Uysk in order to win that fight would have to impose his inside game, he would have to impose a ambush game'.

Usyk would have to be able to do all the things fighters like Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and most other Heavyweights of the 90's were well rehearsed in and good at 'Aggression, violence, body attack, bobbing and weaving and moving forward, and if they had to use some rough house tactics so be it'.

And yes there are two ways, can force Usyk to fight in this area which are? A fighter ether the Chisora approach and just bull's forward, in the hope that they can maintain the pace for 12 rounds 'And also not get hit during those 12 rounds'.

Or a fighter can opt to actually chose to out compete Usyk with their long range to mid range game, nullifying Usyk's ability to fight in these area's 'Forcing Usyk to impose his inside game which is not proven to be of a very high level' Usyk's inside capabilities is unknown.

This Kronk Fury version, is most likely going to fight Usyk with a solid jab 'And then try and bull his way forward behind that Jab, impose his inside game and rough house tactics'. Fury may do well for a few rounds, but the question is? Can Tyson Fury keep it up for 12 rounds? It is also not a given that Fury's movement will be fast enough to impose his inside game for the full 3 minutes of every single round'.

Note: You are right in some ways when you say? It is difficult for these Super Heavyweights to out box a fighter like Usyk. Even if you are a super Heavyweight, speed, timing, being able to read the action, movement all these things have to be of a high level. I just think Fury in 2015, was good enough in these area's to make in extremely difficult for Usyk to out box him.

And Anthony Joshua to his credit, shown vs Usyk twice that is a extremely capable boxer 'The most proven pure boxing at Heavyweight outside of Fury and Usyk' etc.