How does Canelo do against 160/168 Lights Out Toney?

[IronDanHamza]

Barkley was the defending champion and had recently won the Light Heavyweight title, he was a lot better than average man. He wasn’t elite but he was a good fighter.

You honestly don’t see a difference in performance? That was definitely a better version of Toney than we saw against Thornton or Johnson, even McCallum.

Toney was a lot tighter at the weight by the time he fought Jones, he wouldn’t have beat him regardless though, that fights somewhat of an anomaly because Jones is such a stylistic nightmare for him. I don’t believe Toney’s conditioning was a big factor.

What’s the difference then? This is the question that I’ve still had no answer for.

He weighed in at 167 vs Barkley. He weighed in 167 vs Roy Jones.

He had 5 fights in the calendar year prior to Barkley. He had 4 fights in the calendar year prior to Jones.

What is the difference? Other than he looked good in one and terrible in the other? That’s the only reasoning ever hear when that logic/excuse is used.

The reality is there’s no difference. At LHW and below there is one version of Toney. Someone who doesn’t train overly hard and struggles to make the weight for all of his fights.

And yes I definitely see the difference in performance, I don’t see a difference in the two versions of fighters. The Toney in the ring with Barkley is no different to the Toney in the ring with Jones or Reggie Johnson, or Sosa, or Nunn or McCallum or any other fight Toney had at those weights, the only difference are the opponents.

Like I said, first and foremost Barkley is a perfect style match up for Toney. Slow, sits on the chest, throws one punch for your punch, two punches for your two punches, that’s a perfect style for Toney. So, that’s the main reason why he looked good in that fight.

The second reason is because Barkley IS the epitome of an average fighter. In his prime he wasn’t close to elite, let alone that past it version Toney fought. So that’s another factor.

The actual version of Toney that’s inside the ring is exactly the same. Unless someone can point out what the actual difference is because I’ve yet to have been given one.

[IronDanHamza]

Reading the thread back, I see most of the posts are the typical fantasy land "Toney destroys him".

Do tell, when did Toney ever destroy, dominate, or even clearly beat anyone on Canelo's level in his career?

[djtmal]

160-168 James would school him. Has too many vet tricks for Canelo. Canelo had to learn on the job the stuff that James already had in the toolkit.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

What’s the difference then? This is the question that I’ve still had no answer for.

He weighed in at 167 vs Barkley. He weighed in 167 vs Roy Jones.

He had 5 fights in the calendar year prior to Barkley. He had 4 fights in the calendar year prior to Jones.

What is the difference? Other than he looked good in one and terrible in the other? That’s the only reasoning ever hear when that logic/excuse is used.

The reality is there’s no difference. At LHW and below there is one version of Toney. Someone who doesn’t train overly hard and struggles to make the weight for all of his fights.

And yes I definitely see the difference in performance, I don’t see a difference in the two versions of fighters. The Toney in the ring with Barkley is no different to the Toney in the ring with Jones or Reggie Johnson, or Sosa, or Nunn or McCallum or any other fight Toney had at those weights, the only difference are the opponents.

Like I said, first and foremost Barkley is a perfect style match up for Toney. Slow, sits on the chest, throws one punch for your punch, two punches for your two punches, that’s a perfect style for Toney. So, that’s the main reason why he looked good in that fight.

The second reason is because Barkley IS the epitome of an average fighter. In his prime he wasn’t close to elite, let alone that past it version Toney fought. So that’s another factor.

The actual version of Toney that’s inside the ring is exactly the same. Unless someone can point out what the actual difference is because I’ve yet to have been given one.

I already told you. The performance. I’m not saying it was night and day but that was the peak version of Toney IMO.

Barkley was a very good fighter, you’re harshly judging him to try and discredit Toney. You don’t beat become a legitimate 3 weight world champion in the 80’s and 90’s if you’re an average fighter.

I know you hate Toney mate, but most consider him to be an ATG and one of the best fighters of his era, me included.

[IronDanHamza]

I already told you. The performance. I’m not saying it was night and day but that was the peak version of Toney IMO.

Barkley was a very good fighter, you’re harshly judging him to try and discredit Toney. You don’t beat become a legitimate 3 weight world champion in the 80’s and 90’s if you’re an average fighter.

I know you hate Toney mate, but most consider him to be an ATG and one of the best fighters of his era, me included.

Ok firstly I don't "hate" Toney at all. For me you're the best poster on this site so I don't know why you'd stoop to something like that when we're just having a discussion here, which is what this board is for.

I understand the performance was better but again that's down to a list of factors. I see not a single reason to believe his performance was better due to him being in better shape. What evidence do we have he was in any better shape for Barkley and not in shape for Jones?


I mean, we can sit here and pretend Iran Barkley was some elite fighter but the fact of the matter is he absolutely was not. Yeah he's a "3 weight champion" that looks fantastic on paper but 2 of those titles were won against a past it Hearns (Pretty much his only decent win in his career) and the other was against Darren Van Horn who was frankly garbage and was never even in the Top 5 in the division despite being a "Champion".

What is Barkely's best win outside of Hearns? Sanderline Williams maybe? And to be honest I scored that fight for Williams.

His resume is a joke and he lost to just about every decent fighter he faced. Average fighter, AT BEST. Let alone the version Toney fought which was well beyond his best days.

As for Toney's ATG status. You're entitled to your opinion but the fact is he's not even a first Ballot HOF'er. It's very difficult to be both of those things at the same time.

[_Rexy_]

Canelo swings at air all night, getting his face battered in the process.

[IronDanHamza]

Canelo swings at air all night, getting his face battered in the process.

And when did Toney ever do what you've just described to anyone even close to Canelo's level?

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

Ok firstly I don't "hate" Toney at all. For me you're the best poster on this site so I don't know why you'd stoop to something like that when we're just having a discussion here, which is what this board is for.

I understand the performance was better but again that's down to a list of factors. I see not a single reason to believe his performance was better due to him being in better shape. What evidence do we have he was in any better shape for Barkley and not in shape for Jones?


I mean, we can sit here and pretend Iran Barkley was some elite fighter but the fact of the matter is he absolutely was not. Yeah he's a "3 weight champion" that looks fantastic on paper but 2 of those titles were won against a past it Hearns (Pretty much his only decent win in his career) and the other was against Darren Van Horn who was frankly garbage and was never even in the Top 5 in the division despite being a "Champion".

What is Barkely's best win outside of Hearns? Sanderline Williams maybe? And to be honest I scored that fight for Williams.

His resume is a joke and he lost to just about every decent fighter he faced. Average fighter, AT BEST. Let alone the version Toney fought which was well beyond his best days.

As for Toney's ATG status. You're entitled to your opinion but the fact is he's not even a first Ballot HOF'er. It's very difficult to be both of those things at the same time.

I always got the impression you hated Toney. You are very harsh on him IMO. I understand part of your reasoning but to just dismiss Barkley is unfair. The Hearns wins stand out obviously but that doesn’t change the fact he beat an ATG twice. The first version of Hearns he beat had only ever lost to Leonard and Hagler so that was a very good win.

Barkley was highly competitive with Hearns, Duran, Nunn and Kalambay. He definitely proved his level as more than just a guy who got lucky.

It was his first fight at 168 right? Toney is well documented as being a guy who didn’t live the life in regards to dieting and training, I suspect the extra 8 pounds helped him a lot in the early days at 168. I am speculating though, I don’t know for a fact Toney was better prepared for Barkley but I do think that’s the best Toney ever looked.

[IronDanHamza]

I always got the impression you hated Toney. You are very harsh on him IMO. I understand part of your reasoning but to just dismiss Barkley is unfair. The Hearns wins stand out obviously but that doesn’t change the fact he beat an ATG twice. The first version of Hearns he beat had only ever lost to Leonard and Hagler so that was a very good win.

Barkley was highly competitive with Hearns, Duran, Nunn and Kalambay. He definitely proved his level as more than just a guy who got lucky.

It was his first fight at 168 right? Toney is well documented as being a guy who didn’t live the life in regards to dieting and training, I suspect the extra 8 pounds helped him a lot in the early days at 168. I am speculating though, I don’t know for a fact Toney was better prepared for Barkley but I do think that’s the best Toney ever looked.

Don't hate Toney at all. I actually like his style of fighting. I just have an issue with this strange internet fanbase he has that don't live in reality.

The Hearns win was good, sure, past prime by quite a bit but still a good win(s). What else does he have? What's his next best win? Like I said I would say probably Sanderline Williams who was a fringe contender at best (Albeit underrated IMO) and I felt Williams won (Close)

I never said Barkely was lucky, just average. Which he was, he was a solid, average fighter who lost to every decent fighter he fought outside of a past it Hearns.

He'd technically had quite a few fights at 168 by then but it was his second fight there after relinquishing his Middleweight title.

But he fought Roy Jones the following year, had 4 fights prior that calendar year. Weighed in under the limit for both.

Not seeing a difference....I don't see a difference between any version of Toney at 175 and below in regards to the fighter in the ring and the shape he was in despite the commonly used excuse/myth. It's not like he looked incredible against an elite opponent on one day then not the next, his career was consistent....Struggled with pretty much every top fighter he faced, won some close ones and lost some close ones (Other than Roy who totally dominated him from start to finish)

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

Don't hate Toney at all. I actually like his style of fighting. I just have an issue with this strange internet fanbase he has that don't live in reality.

The Hearns win was good, sure, past prime by quite a bit but still a good win(s). What else does he have? What's his next best win? Like I said I would say probably Sanderline Williams who was a fringe contender at best (Albeit underrated IMO) and I felt Williams won (Close)

I never said Barkely was lucky, just average. Which he was, he was a solid, average fighter who lost to every decent fighter he fought outside of a past it Hearns.

He'd technically had quite a few fights at 168 by then but it was his second fight there after relinquishing his Middleweight title.

But he fought Roy Jones the following year, had 4 fights prior that calendar year. Weighed in under the limit for both.

Not seeing a difference....I don't see a difference between any version of Toney at 175 and below in regards to the fighter in the ring and the shape he was in despite the commonly used excuse/myth. It's not like he looked incredible against an elite opponent on one day then not the next, his career was consistent....Struggled with pretty much every top fighter he faced, won some close ones and lost some close ones (Other than Roy who totally dominated him from start to finish)

Kinchen maybe. I don’t know Barkley’s resume intrinsically tbh but I have seen most of his bigger fights. I don’t hold that against Barkley, you could make a similar claim about a lot of fighters from that era. What was John Mugabi’s best win for example? Regardless, we respect his level based on what he did against Hagler. I think we have to respect Barkley based on what he did against Hearns. His performance against Nunn was good too, I’m not sure of your thoughts on Nunn but I thought he was an elite fighter in his day.

I do believe he crashed the weight for the Roy fight, I know it’s a convenient excuse but I do think Toney looked sluggish/flat that night. Roy beats him regardless though.