Canelo Alvarez vs James Toney

[!! Shawn]

Couldn't care less about Amateur pedigree unless they fought in the Amateurs, they didn't. Howard Davis Jr won the Val Barker trophy aswell, it's irrelevant.

Jirov didn't beat a single ranked fighter as a professional. Not a good pro at all, did absolutely nothing of note in his career. And that fight was close anyway.


I never once asserted that Bivol and Roy Jones are on the same level. I was responding to the notion that Canelo was shutout 12-0 and Toney hasn't been, when, he has, in a lot more embarrassing fashion.

Ok and we've seen Toney's glaring limitations on show aswell when he fought Williams, Sosa, Tiberi, Johnson, Roy Jones, Thazdi and so forth. What's your point?

Toney has cement feet and struggles with people that move aswell. What's your point?

Toneys weakness wasn't a talent deficiency or technical, it was coming into fights completely unprepared because he had to spend the entire camp starving himself and trying to make weight.

Its widely known and accepted that Toney having to cut from 217 to 168 in 6 weeks for the fight against Jones impacted his performance. He was unusually sluggish, and underperformed. Do I think Toney would have ever beat that Roy Jones jr.? No, but Its really disappointing that we didn't get to see that fight with Toney in good condition though.

Each of these outlier fights, its really clear that Toney had to cut massive amounts of weight and was in terrible condition. Tiberi fight for example. Completely gassed after 3 rounds, looked sluggish from the start. Just looking at Toneys run at middleweight after he won the tittle, its clear he was enjoying the money, and really struggling to make the weight more with each fight.

Also, you haven't actually watched the Sosa fight if you are listing that, it was a clear win for Toney against a guy thats just really awkward and ugly to the point the commentators going into I think the 10th round were already saying that Sosa needs a knockout to win. Especially considering that he had been knocked down, and had a point deducted for a very low blow. Toney proceeded to win the 11th and 12th comfortable. Toney also outlanded him by almost 100 punches, the split decision had cards for toney in the 117-109 range.

I am by no means saying Toney didn't have weaknesses though, southpaw movers like Nunn and Johnson gave him problems. He didn't particularly like to chase down movers, I suspect that had more to do with him often coming in out of shape though as his footwork is was great and he could punch on the move.

But we are talking about Canelo vs Toney in particular, and there isn't a single thing Canelo does, that Toney didn't do better. Stylistically Stylistically, Toney is the exact type of fighter that Canelo has shown difficulty dealing with.

Toney however is for all intents and purposes when it comes to discussing how they match up stylistically, a bigger, harder hitting version of Mayweather. Canelo just recently showed difficulty dealing with Caleb plants limited shoulder roll, and counter punching. Honestly, what do you think he would do with James Toney?

Yes realistically there is a chance that James Toney showed up in terrible condition, but in these hypothetical matches we are usually talking about both fighters at their best are we not?

[IronDanHamza]

Toneys weakness wasn't a talent deficiency or technical, it was coming into fights completely unprepared because he had to spend the entire camp starving himself and trying to make weight.

Wrong.

Toney has a plethora of weaknesses.

Its widely known and accepted that Toney having to cut from 217 to 168 in 6 weeks for the fight against Jones impacted his performance. He was unusually sluggish, and underperformed. Do I think Toney would have ever beat that Roy Jones jr.? No, but Its really disappointing that we didn't get to see that fight with Toney in good condition though.

No it's not "widely known" at all outside of excuses from his own camp.

He fought exactly the same as every single fight he had at Middleweight. Literally every single one. And he cut big amounts of weight for all of those fights aswell.

Difference was he's not on Roy Jones' level obviously.

Each of these outlier fights, its really clear that Toney had to cut massive amounts of weight and was in terrible condition. Tiberi fight for example. Completely gassed after 3 rounds, looked sluggish from the start. Just looking at Toneys run at middleweight after he won the tittle, its clear he was enjoying the money, and really struggling to make the weight more with each fight.

Nice continuance of excuses there but in actual reality there is no difference between those fights and any of his other MW fights, or any of his fights for that matter.

Also, you haven't actually watched the Sosa fight if you are listing that, it was a clear win for Toney against a guy thats just really awkward and ugly to the point the commentators going into I think the 10th round were already saying that Sosa needs a knockout to win. Especially considering that he had been knocked down, and had a point deducted for a very low blow. Toney proceeded to win the 11th and 12th comfortable. Toney also outlanded him by almost 100 punches, the split decision had cards for toney in the 117-109 range.

Yeah mate, no. Not going to wash here unfortunately. I watched the fight live when it happened and have watched it numerous times since. But nice strawman attempt.

I had Toney winning but it was anything but "clear", he gave away many rounds posturing and doing nothing.

Toney won the fight yes, IMO, but he looked terrible as he did many times in his career.

I am by no means saying Toney didn't have weaknesses though, southpaw movers like Nunn and Johnson gave him problems. He didn't particularly like to chase down movers, I suspect that had more to do with him often coming in out of shape though as his footwork is was great and he could punch on the move.

But we are talking about Canelo vs Toney in particular, and there isn't a single thing Canelo does, that Toney didn't do better. Stylistically Stylistically, Toney is the exact type of fighter that Canelo has shown difficulty dealing with.

No he's not. Not at all. Quite the opposite actually.

Canelo struggles with movers, which is the opposite of what Toney is. Canelo tends to do ok with people with slow feet and stationary feet, which Toney has.

Toney however is for all intents and purposes when it comes to discussing how they match up stylistically, a bigger, harder hitting version of Mayweather. Canelo just recently showed difficulty dealing with Caleb plants limited shoulder roll, and counter punching. Honestly, what do you think he would do with James Toney?

James Toney a bigger version of Mayweather? On what Planet??? They are nothing alike stylistically outside of the fact they use their shoulder to deflect punches.

The rest of that point is just another fallacy. "Plant won rounds against Canelo therefore what does Toney do?" (In a fight Canelo won by KO)

I can just as easily say Dave Tiberi beat Toney with ease so what would Canelo do? And those examples stretch round the block.


Toney could beat Canelo, he could also lose. He's never shown at any time in his career that he would easily beat a fighter of Canelo's level. Never.

It's as simple as that.