I've drawn the conclusion that JMM is REALLY the P4P Number 1.

[Chups]

how old is marquez again?

And what was the difference in age when Pac fought Morales and Barrera? Same as JMM-Casa right?


and the silence................***in *****.

[shogunn]

I don't see how I'm backtracking. It's been there in plain English from the beginning. I never said anyone has them even, just that they would agree it's reasonable to think so. You're the one who's trying to make it seem like I said something I didn't.

You pulled that statement from no where. I at least gave you sources like P4P rankings that have Manny as #1, and no where at all do any experts have them even. Then you argued that maybe some have JMM#1, but again no proof. Now it's "its not unreasonable for them to think so....." but with no form of evidence at all. very weak

"By the same token, I don't put Manny's over JMM's. I'll call it even, as many credible boxing experts would agree is a fair assessment of JMM and Pac at this point."

[Doc Holliday]

You pulled that statement from no where. I at least gave you sources like P4P rankings that have Manny as #1, and no where at all do any experts have them even. Then you argued that maybe some have JMM#1, but again no proof. Now it's "its not unreasonable for them to think so....." but with no form of evidence at all. very weak

"By the same token, I don't put Manny's over JMM's. I'll call it even, as many credible boxing experts would agree is a fair assessment of JMM and Pac at this point."

HAHA, this is like having a discussion with a child. You keep going back to lb 4 lb lists when I've been trying to make you understand that I don't need to go by lb 4 lb lists to form my opinion.

Or that my assessment would be considered reasonable by many boxing experts even though they may not agree with it. When I say a boxing expert, I'm not talking about a list on a website. I'm talking about an individual that is knowledgeable about the sport. You want me to cite sources as evidence that a boxing expert would consider my opinion to be reasonable? Why would I waste my time like that? It's a statement that is reasonable at face value. But if it bothers you that much, I'll give you a suggestion. Many boxing writers include their e-mail with the articles they write. Contact them and ask them if it's a fair assessment to think that Pac and JMM are even. They'll tell you it is reasonable to think so, though they may not agree.

It has been almost a complete waste of time explaining all of this to you. I did learn something, though. Never try to explain your opinion to a Pacfan. They can't handle the possibility that someone can have an opinion different than theirs.

[Ravishing]

Pac just got shipped down to number 3 on my list.

1. JMM
2. Hopkins
3. Pacman
4. Mayweather
5. Mosley
6. Cotto
7. Williams
8. Linares
9. Vic The Lobster
10. JuanMa

All of a sudden Pac is going down to #3? Because you said so?

LOL...c'mon, I know you're not THAT much of a biggot.

[LA BAD BOY]

I ve drawn the conclusion that you are REALLY ******DDDDDDDDDd

PACMAN smashed JMM and he is number 1 p4p.

[solo20]

WOW the Pac nuthuggers are dumb as f@#k they still dont get what elwills was trying to say so he gets attack. dont wast you time with these nuthuggers you cant say anything that goes aginst Pac or you will get attack by these nut riders

[shogunn]

HAHA, this is like having a discussion with a child. You keep going back to lb 4 lb lists when I've been trying to make you understand that I don't need to go by lb 4 lb lists to form my opinion.

Or that my assessment would be considered reasonable by many boxing experts even though they may not agree with it. When I say a boxing expert, I'm not talking about a list on a website. I'm talking about an individual that is knowledgeable about the sport. You want me to cite sources as evidence that a boxing expert would consider my opinion to be reasonable? Why would I waste my time like that? It's a statement that is reasonable at face value. But if it bothers you that much, I'll give you a suggestion. Many boxing writers include their e-mail with the articles they write. Contact them and ask them if it's a fair assessment to think that Pac and JMM are even. They'll tell you it is reasonable to think so, though they may not agree.

It has been almost a complete waste of time explaining all of this to you. I did learn something, though. Never try to explain your opinion to a Pacfan. They can't handle the possibility that someone can have an opinion different than theirs.

hah, ok. I called you out on it because I knew your arguement was bull**** and your resort to personal attacks. nice.

Your arugement was flawed from the beginning, and you can easily see the contradictions above.

You claim "most" boxing experts would agree that JMM and PAC are even. Yet everyone has Manny P4P #1, and not anywhere have I heard them being even.

For "most" boxing experts to call them even, There'd have to be some proof of at least 70% of published articles and rankings that state so. If you claim "why would I waste my time...." then we know your full of ****.

The fact is no one sees them as even like you claim. I pointed out that rankings have Manny over JMM #1.

It is YOUR opinion that they are even. and it is also YOUR opinion that "most" experts have them even, when clearly you cannot provide a shred of evidence that supports this.

[Doc Holliday]

hah, ok. I called you out on it because I knew your arguement was bull**** and your resort to personal attacks. nice.

Your arugement was flawed from the beginning, and you can easily see the contradictions above.

I didn't start with an argument. I gave a personal opinion, which you responded to. See post #41. Note that it is unedited.

#41: “I'd say they're both dead even now. I had JMM edging out Pac for P4P #1 in his victories over Casa and Diaz (compared to Pac's wins over D. Diaz and a dried-up DLH) since they last met. But I have to admit I was impressed with Pac's annihilation of Hatton at 140.”

I restated my position in post #47. This post was edited for clarity, but note that it was edited before you responded to it in post #48. So none of the meaning was changed after the fact.

#47: “Easy there, don't get too upset over someone else's opinion. Most "official" lb 4 lb lists have Manny as #1, and they are what they are. But I disagree with them. My personal opinion is that they're even until they settle it in the rubber match.”

It is here that I first stated that I disagree with lb 4 lb lists, and restated that I’m giving my opinion. So if you can follow logic you will understand that I’m not going by lb 4 lb lists when I make any statements after that post. I also give the logic behind each opinion in other posts. So if you have been trying to change my opinion, you should have tried to do it with some logical analysis of your own, not a list someone else came up with. Something you haven’t been able to do.

You claim "most" boxing experts would agree that JMM and PAC are even. Yet everyone has Manny P4P #1, and not anywhere have I heard them being even. For "most" boxing experts to call them even, There'd have to be some proof of at least 70% of published articles and rankings that state so. If you claim "why would I waste my time...." then we know your full of ****.

The fact is no one sees them as even like you claim. I pointed out that rankings have Manny over JMM #1.

Post #65: “In any case it all boils down to this: Most experts would agree that JMM and Pac are virtually equal, and I think all boxing fans would like to see that third fight.”

This is the first time I said most experts would agree Pac and JMM are virtually equal. Note that this post is also unedited. Now, since I’ve established that I’m not going by lb 4 lb lists, it should be clear that I’m not saying they should both be holding the #1 position on lb 4 lb lists at the same time, or that anyone has made that claim. Now, it doesn’t take a boxing expert to tell you that if these two fighters have fought 24 rounds and are separated by only a point on the scorecards, then they are virtually equal. See the definition of the word virtual. (It’s funny how you leave out key words at your convenience to fit your argument.) And if we go by their bouts with other fighters, I’ve already explained why I don’t think some of Pac’s victories are as good as they seem on his resume.

Now the premise from the beginning is that we’re talking about my personal opinion. So it is my subjective view about this subject, though I explain it with logical analysis. You on the other hand, have offered very little analysis of your own. The best you’ve done so far is to try to explain how Pac’s win over D. Diaz is more meaningful than JMM’s win over J. Diaz, which shows your bias and seriously detracts from your credibility. Other than that you have simply dismissed my examples as being “weak,” etc., without explaining why. And after I give an explanation of why one of my opinions is valid, you choose to ignore it. Either that or you resort to calling something “bull****” and leave it at that. This shows you can’t articulate an intelligent thought.

It is YOUR opinion that they are even.

Congratulations, at least you got that part.

and it is also YOUR opinion that "most" experts have them even, when clearly you cannot provide a shred of evidence that supports this.

I’ve explained above, and several other times, exactly what I meant, but you insist on twisting my words. This is why trying to explain something to you is a waste of time. You either don’t understand or choose not to.

[shogunn]

I didn't start with an argument. I gave a personal opinion, which you responded to. See post #41. Note that it is unedited.

#41: “I'd say they're both dead even now. I had JMM edging out Pac for P4P #1 in his victories over Casa and Diaz (compared to Pac's wins over D. Diaz and a dried-up DLH) since they last met. But I have to admit I was impressed with Pac's annihilation of Hatton at 140.”

I restated my position in post #47. This post was edited for clarity, but note that it was edited before you responded to it in post #48. So none of the meaning was changed after the fact.

#47: “Easy there, don't get too upset over someone else's opinion. Most "official" lb 4 lb lists have Manny as #1, and they are what they are. But I disagree with them. My personal opinion is that they're even until they settle it in the rubber match.”

It is here that I first stated that I disagree with lb 4 lb lists, and restated that I’m giving my opinion. So if you can follow logic you will understand that I’m not going by lb 4 lb lists when I make any statements after that post. I also give the logic behind each opinion in other posts. So if you have been trying to change my opinion, you should have tried to do it with some logical analysis of your own, not a list someone else came up with. Something you haven’t been able to do.



Post #65: “In any case it all boils down to this: Most experts would agree that JMM and Pac are virtually equal, and I think all boxing fans would like to see that third fight.”

This is the first time I said most experts would agree Pac and JMM are virtually equal. Note that this post is also unedited. Now, since I’ve established that I’m not going by lb 4 lb lists, it should be clear that I’m not saying they should both be holding the #1 position on lb 4 lb lists at the same time, or that anyone has made that claim. Now, it doesn’t take a boxing expert to tell you that if these two fighters have fought 24 rounds and are separated by only a point on the scorecards, then they are virtually equal. See the definition of the word virtual. (It’s funny how you leave out key words at your convenience to fit your argument.) And if we go by their bouts with other fighters, I’ve already explained why I don’t think some of Pac’s victories are as good as they seem on his resume.

Now the premise from the beginning is that we’re talking about my personal opinion. So it is my subjective view about this subject, though I explain it with logical analysis. You on the other hand, have offered very little analysis of your own. The best you’ve done so far is to try to explain how Pac’s win over D. Diaz is more meaningful than JMM’s win over J. Diaz, which shows your bias and seriously detracts from your credibility. Other than that you have simply dismissed my examples as being “weak,” etc., without explaining why. And after I give an explanation of why one of my opinions is valid, you choose to ignore it. Either that or you resort to calling something “bull****” and leave it at that. This shows you can’t articulate an intelligent thought.




Congratulations, at least you got that part.



I’ve explained above, and several other times, exactly what I meant, but you insist on twisting my words. This is why trying to explain something to you is a waste of time. You either don’t understand or choose not to.

I didn't start with an argument. I gave a personal opinion, which you responded to. See post #41. Note that it is unedited.

#41: “I'd say they're both dead even now. I had JMM edging out Pac for P4P #1 in his victories over Casa and Diaz (compared to Pac's wins over D. Diaz and a dried-up DLH) since they last met. But I have to admit I was impressed with Pac's annihilation of Hatton at 140.”

I restated my position in post #47. This post was edited for clarity, but note that it was edited before you responded to it in post #48. So none of the meaning was changed after the fact.

#47: “Easy there, don't get too upset over someone else's opinion. Most "official" lb 4 lb lists have Manny as #1, and they are what they are. But I disagree with them. My personal opinion is that they're even until they settle it in the rubber match.”

It is here that I first stated that I disagree with lb 4 lb lists, and restated that I’m giving my opinion. So if you can follow logic you will understand that I’m not going by lb 4 lb lists when I make any statements after that post. I also give the logic behind each opinion in other posts. So if you have been trying to change my opinion, you should have tried to do it with some logical analysis of your own, not a list someone else came up with. Something you haven’t been able to do.



Post #65: “In any case it all boils down to this: Most experts would agree that JMM and Pac are virtually equal, and I think all boxing fans would like to see that third fight.”

This is the first time I said most experts would agree Pac and JMM are virtually equal. Note that this post is also unedited. Now, since I’ve established that I’m not going by lb 4 lb lists, it should be clear that I’m not saying they should both be holding the #1 position on lb 4 lb lists at the same time, or that anyone has made that claim. Now, it doesn’t take a boxing expert to tell you that if these two fighters have fought 24 rounds and are separated by only a point on the scorecards, then they are virtually equal. See the definition of the word virtual. (It’s funny how you leave out key words at your convenience to fit your argument.) And if we go by their bouts with other fighters, I’ve already explained why I don’t think some of Pac’s victories are as good as they seem on his resume.

Now the premise from the beginning is that we’re talking about my personal opinion. So it is my subjective view about this subject, though I explain it with logical analysis. You on the other hand, have offered very little analysis of your own. The best you’ve done so far is to try to explain how Pac’s win over D. Diaz is more meaningful than JMM’s win over J. Diaz, which shows your bias and seriously detracts from your credibility. Other than that you have simply dismissed my examples as being “weak,” etc., without explaining why. And after I give an explanation of why one of my opinions is valid, you choose to ignore it. Either that or you resort to calling something “bull****” and leave it at that. This shows you can’t articulate an intelligent thought.




Congratulations, at least you got that part.



I’ve explained above, and several other times, exactly what I meant, but you insist on twisting my words. This is why trying to explain something to you is a waste of time. You either don’t understand or choose not to.

wrong. For you to tell us most boxing experts would agree they are even without pointing out any evidence that supports this makes it a flawed point. If youre not going by P4P lists or articles or anything, youre ASSUMING they are. I counterargued that experts do not believe going off by P4P rankings and general consensus.

By the same token, I don't put Manny's over JMM's. I'll call it even, as many credible boxing experts would agree is a fair assessment of JMM and Pac at this point.

I can tell you "Most boxing experts have Manny over JMM at this point" would have more truth in the statement than yours above. I can back that up with rankings, articles, etc. Thus making your claim false.

Its also funny how you add more fluff to each arguement. I keep things out that have no relevance.


Again, making false claims. I've never said D Diaz > J Diaz. I simply said Manny has a better resume with the likes of Morales, nonshot Barrera, Hatton, JMM ODLH Vs JMM's of Casamayor, J Diaz, shot Barrera, Loss to Chris John, Loss to Manny. You seem to hold J Diaz and Casamayor in an unusual high regard.

But at this point I have been calling it even since they last met for arguments sake, and JMM's wins over Casa and J. Diaz are much better than Manny's wins over D. Diaz and DLH.
.

Again, youre only counting the past year as a method of their rankings being even rather than judging them as a whole. I still have no idea why you would disregard every year prior to 08, maybe just to glorify JMM that much more. Another bad arguement.

Its funny how you add these little personal attacks, but at the same time churning out wrong info. Maybe you should concern yourself of actually trying to cement your arguement with truth rather than bragging about your self proclaimed intelligence and remember youre just on a boxing forum. quoting such words as "bull****" "weak" as an insult to me doesnt increase your self-observed high level of class. Little did I know there were rules of "internet Etiquette". I for one believe that would be actions of a douchebag.

[xcaret]

And what was the difference in age when Pac fought Morales and Barrera? Same as JMM-Casa right?


and the silence................***in *****.

you ***en moron, this just proves you never seen barrera and morales before the pacquiao fights, sit your ***en ****** ass down..