I've drawn the conclusion that JMM is REALLY the P4P Number 1.

[shogunn]

You won't give JMM any credit because of his age, yet you discredit JMM's win over Casa because Casa is old? So which is it, does age matter or not? Also, part of the reason Hopkins is considered a lb 4 lb great is because he does so well at his age. Its not a weak lb 4 lb attribute at all.

And you're right, Pac has an official win. By a point. After 24 rounds. Are you're telling me you're satisfied with that to consider Pac the greater fighter? Wouldn't you rather see a dominant win in the rubber match? If not, I'd say you're the one that's copping out.

As far as how JMM would have done against a dried up EM, we'll never really know, and we can't go on plain speculation.

If you wanna go by their lone losses before they met JMM/Pac: Juan Diaz loss was a decision, while David Diaz had been TKO'd. But come on, we both know Juan Diaz is the better fighter.

I've already explained why I think JMM's wins are greater than Pac's since they last met. But I still say we need the rubber match, and it needs to happen before JMM gets too old. Hopefully it happens right after JMM/May and Pac/Cotto

When I called Casa old, I meant not in prime, which is true. I also said JMM, aside age, is still in his boxing prime. clear difference.

Yes I'm right, and so were the refs. A win is a win. close wins, but also Manny was never knocked down vs JMM, as opposed to JMM 4x. It seems like alot of people on this board give more credit to getting up from a KD, rather than the boxer who gave the KD. I dont know why..

The point on Juan Diaz is that it's an overrated win when you try to build him up as younger, hungrier, warrior bred from sparta. Very clear in this case that Hatton was a tougher matchup than Juan Diaz. Also, Manny shouldnt be knocked for beating David Diaz. You have to remmeber he won that match very convicingly.

There does need to be a #3 match, but until then, Manny is still #1 P4P over JMM. Resume's alone and head to head.

Can you tell us what JMM's best win is that puts him over the top against Manny? Juan Diaz, Casamayor? Cant include Manny on this win list.

Manny has a non-shot Barrera, Morales 2x, Hatton, not even counting JMM since it's a very sensitive subject to alot of you.


Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, JMM, Barrera, Morales > J Diaz, Casamayor, shot-Barrera, Loss to Manny

[Doc Holliday]

When I called Casa old, I meant not in prime, which is true. I also said JMM, aside age, is still in his boxing prime. clear difference.

Yes I'm right, and so were the refs. A win is a win. close wins, but also Manny was never knocked down vs JMM, as opposed to JMM 4x. It seems like alot of people on this board give more credit to getting up from a KD, rather than the boxer who gave the KD. I dont know why..

The point on Juan Diaz is that it's an overrated win when you try to build him up as younger, hungrier, warrior bred from sparta. Very clear in this case that Hatton was a tougher matchup than Juan Diaz. Also, Manny shouldnt be knocked for beating David Diaz. You have to remmeber he won that match very convicingly.

There does need to be a #3 match, but until then, Manny is still #1 P4P over JMM. Resume's alone and head to head.

Can you tell us what JMM's best win is that puts him over the top against Manny? Juan Diaz, Casamayor? Cant include Manny on this win list.

Manny has a non-shot Barrera, Morales 2x, Hatton, not even counting JMM since it's a very sensitive subject to alot of you.


Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, JMM, Barrera, Morales > J Diaz, Casamayor, shot-Barrera, Loss to Manny

So I can't knock Pac's win over a dried-up Morales, but you can knock JMM's win over what you consider a "shot" Barrera and an old Casa? Come on man, enough with the double standards. Make up your mind.

And you're really going out of your way to discredit Juan Diaz. He lost a split decision to Nate Campbell who was considered the best at 135 when they fought. David Diaz was never considred a great at 135, and some even thought he got a gift decision over a shot Morales.

And actually I'm not counting Pac's win over JMM cause I had it for Marquez. But since both fights could've gone either way I'm calling it even til the third match if it happens.

Back to the same old arguments, Manny knocked JMM down 4X. By the same token, Manny couldn't put him away. And JMM has won more rounds than Manny. We can go in circles forever here.

Also, the fact that JMM boxed Manny's ears off (with a broken nose) after Pac had such a great first round in the first fight is a huge testament to how much greater JMM is as a boxer. It actually does count for a lot that Marquez came back in that fight. Most other fighters aren't able to recover after Manny hurts them.

JMM's wins are much better than Pac's since they last met. The only good win for Pac is the one over Hatton. But now Marquez is taking on a much greater challenge in facing Mayweather. And unfortunately, it seems like we'll never be able to compare a Pac performance against Mayweather since both Pac and May are too greedy to allow it to happen.

[Grand Champ]

Thanks for showing us your ****ty p4p list.

[shogunn]

So I can't knock Pac's win over a dried-up Morales and an old but still competent Casa, but you can knock JMM's win over a what you consider a "shot" Barrera? Come on man, enough with the double standards. Make up your mind.

And you're really going out of your way to discredit Juan Diaz. He lost a split decision to Nate Campbell who was considered the best at 135 when they fought. David Diaz was never considred a great at 135, and some even thought he got a gift decision over a "shot" Morales.

And actually I'm not counting Pac's win over JMM cause I had it for Marquez. But since both fights could've gone either way I'm calling it even til the third match if it happens.

Back to the same old arguments, Manny knocked JMM down 4X. By the same token, Manny couldn't put him away. And JMM has won more rounds than Manny. We can go in circles forever here.

Also, the fact that JMM boxed Manny's ears off (with a broken nose) after Pac had such a great first round in the first fight is a huge testament to how much greater JMM is as a boxer. It actually does count for a lot that Marquez came back in that fight. Most other fighters aren't able to recover after Manny hurts them.

JMM's wins are much better than Pac's since they last met. The only good win for Pac is the one over Hatton. But now Marquez is taking on a much greater challenge in facing Mayweather. And unfortunately, it seems like we'll never be able to compare a Pac performance against Mayweather since both Pac and May are to greedy to allow it to happen.

I didnt know P4P rankings are only based from 1 YEAR and 3 months. Can you please answer which fights put JMM over top of Manny at this point? If youre going to call him JMM P4P over Manny, it cant just be fights within the past Year. Why do you think Mayweather is out of the rankings.

You also have to remember he lost to Manny last year. Mannys last loss was against EM 4 years ago (which he avenged twice), and JMM also lost to Chris John in that timespan.



Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, JMM, Barrera, Morales > J Diaz, Casamayor, shot-Barrera, Loss to Manny



If youre gonna tell me Juan Diaz and Casamayor ***** over Manny's resume and make him the #1 P4P king I'll know this was all just a joke.

[Doc Holliday]

I didnt know P4P rankings are only based from 1 YEAR and 3 months. Can you please answer which fights put JMM over top of Manny at this point? If youre going to call him JMM P4P over Manny, it cant just be fights within the past Year. Why do you think Mayweather is out of the rankings.

You also have to remember he lost to Manny last year. Mannys last loss was against EM 4 years ago (which he avenged twice), and JMM also lost to Chris John in that timespan.



Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, JMM, Barrera, Morales > J Diaz, Casamayor, shot-Barrera, Loss to Manny



If youre gonna tell me Juan Diaz and Casamayor ***** over Manny's resume and make him the #1 P4P king I'll know this was all just a joke.

I'm not going on a single win to consider JMM greater than Pac. I had JMM over Pac in both of their fights, simply because I felt JMM outboxed him. Also Pac has been knocked out before and JMM has not. I know, you're gonna say "That's when Pac was really young or couldn't make weight!" But as you like to say, it's a fact. He's been knocked out and JMM hasn't. So it works both ways.

But at this point I have been calling it even since they last met for arguments sake, and JMM's wins over Casa and J. Diaz are much better than Manny's wins over D. Diaz and DLH. So when JMM beat Casa, lineal champ at 135 and Juan Diaz, one of the best at 135, (compared to Pac's win over paper champ D. Diaz and a dried-up DLH) I personally had JMM slightly edging Pac.

Now that Pac has destroyed Hatton I'm back to calling it even. But JMM can outdo Pac once again in his performance against Mayweather. Just my personal opinion that I consider to be pretty reasonable.

You on the other hand, use double standards on the Casa win and JMM's age; you go out of your way to tear down an outstanding fighter like Juan Diaz, and even try building up a paper champ like David Diaz to try and make your point. You also like to use the Chris John "loss" against JMM. Have you even seen that fight? You can download it from various sites. I suggest you watch it to see what really happened. Also, do you really consider Pac's win over a dried up DLH as a great achievement? Because that's the fight that was truly a joke.

[shogunn]

I'm not going on a single win to consider JMM greater than Pac. I had JMM over Pac in both of their fights, simply because I felt JMM outboxed him. Also Pac has been knocked out before and JMM has not. I know, you're gonna say "That's when Pac was really young or couldn't make weight!" But as you like to say, it's a fact. He's been knocked out and JMM hasn't. So it works both ways.

But at this point I have been calling it even since they last met for arguments sake, and JMM's wins over Casa and J. Diaz are much better than Manny's wins over D. Diaz and DLH. So when JMM beat Casa, lineal champ at 135 and Juan Diaz, one of the best at 135, (compared to Pac's win over paper champ D. Diaz and a dried-up DLH) I personally had JMM slightly edging Pac.

Now that Pac has destroyed Hatton I'm back to calling it even. But JMM can outdo Pac once again in his performance against Mayweather. Just my personal opinion that I consider to be pretty reasonable.

You on the other hand, use double standards on the Casa win and JMM's age; you go out of your way to tear down an outstanding fighter like Juan Diaz, and even try building up a paper champ like David Diaz to try and make your point. Also, do you really consider Pac's win over a dried up DLH as a great achievement? Because that's the fight that was truly a joke.

Did you just ignore everything I said? is P4P based only from 1 year? because thats what youre obviously basing this off of. Even if youre going just by this year JMM still lost to Manny.

Asking again, which fights put JMMs resume over Manny's that make JMM the #1 P4P king. Also, JMM lost to Manny so again..wtf.....


Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, JMM, Barrera, Morales2x

Vs

J Diaz, Casamayor, shot-Barrera, Loss to Manny

[Doc Holliday]

Did you just ignore everything I said? is P4P based only from 1 year? because thats what youre obviously basing this off of. Even if youre going just by this year JMM still lost to Manny.

Asking again, which fights put JMMs resume over Manny's that make JMM the #1 P4P king. Also, JMM lost to Manny so again..wtf.....


Hatton, ODLH, D Diaz, JMM, Barrera, Morales2x

Vs

J Diaz, Casamayor, shot-Barrera, Loss to Manny

I told you that I'm calling it throughout their whole careers, not on any one fight,(which is why I brought up Pac's KO losses). Since I felt JMM should have got the wins over Pac both times, I had JMM ahead.

But recently I have decided to call it even since they last met (and give Pac the benefit of the doubt). Considering their wins since they last met, I have JMM's wins as being better. I'm only impressed with Pac's win over Hatton cause he's Pac's only "live wire" opponent since the JMM fight. So I'm back to calling it even. Go back to my first post in this thread, it says I have them even, not that JMM is currently #1. How hard is that to understand?

[-EX-]

No way in hell is Marquez's resume better than Pac's...

[shogunn]

I told you that I'm calling it throughout their whole careers, not on any one fight,(which is why I brought up Pac's KO losses) and had JMM ahead.
But recently I have decided to call it even since they last met (and give Pac the benefit of the doubt). Considering their wins since they last met, I have JMM's wins as being better. I'm only impressed with Pac's win over Hatton cause he's Pac's only "live wire" opponent since the JMM fight. So I'm back to calling it even. Go back to my first post in this thread, it says I have them even, not that JMM is currently #1. How hard is that to understand?

ok, on entire careers Manny should still be ahead.

Even? ok instead of him being ahead, how are they even? Manny has a better resume (even arguably within the past year) and he has a win over JMM.

Alot of the P4P rankings are based on resumes, head to head match Manny won it.

I'm repeating myself over and over, but what wins make JMM better than Mannys? shouldnt wins and losses be accounted in a P4P ranking? It should be simple really... I still dont understand where youre coming from. Your argument is theyre even P4P since they last met, which doesnt make sense. Since P4P rankings are NOT based only from 1 year.

If youre claiming it only goes back to 1 year then youre argument in them being even in rankings is wrong.

Even more recently JMM has had more losses that he hasnt avenged. (Chris John, Manny).

[Iceta]

At first I was kind of sour toward JMM's notion that he got robbed against Pacquiao. But the guy has really grown on me by trying to out do Pacquiao where ring accomplishments are concerned. And I think Marquez had the momentum in the last round of the second fight and Pacquiao looked tired to me and ready to give in, regardless of who I scored the fight for. The only guy that's missing on his resume is at 135 is Nate Campell and we know the story there. Campell had a chance to fight JMM late last year, but Campell wanted Casamayor instead before Casamayor lost his championship to JMM and that's understandable. And Nacho said that Marquez would be interested in fighting Campell after the Diaz victory and Nate blew it by not making the weight at 135.