was tarver tip top or weight drained against BHop

[warp1432]

There's a difference between how you feel you are going to be then how you are on fight-night.

You can lie to yourself all you want...people around to you can stay blind and lie to you all they want...but on fight-night, the truth will be exposed and that truth is (for this particular topic)....Did you really stay healthy making the weight?

And Tarver isn't making any excuses because it would discredit what he said to Jones Jr....and his wins over Roy.

Losing to Hopkins isn't as big of a deal as beating Roy Jones Jr prior.


Fighters lose weight for fights, true, but how is Tarver to know how the that much weight-loss is going to effect him unless he has gone up that high before and looked good in recent times (since we factor in age as well)?

Tarver is basing it on how he felt in the past with losing weight (which was less) and on not thinking Roy's "excuse" was valid despite what history has shown us with other examples of fighters doing the same.

We know it doesn't effect him because HE'S MADE 175 PERFECTLY FINE AFTER IT TOO. That's not that hard to imagine. You are not taking any of Hopkins' performance into consideration. He'd fire the right hand off and pretty much always hit with it. He'd move, so Tarver couldn't get into range and he'd hold when Tarver did get close. He made Tarver look weak.

You can't say he was drained because you have:

A. Hopkins performance which explains how he shut Tarver down
B. Him making 175 perfectly after
C. Tarver's word saying how he had been training for months to bring down the weight and how he was ready. It's not like he was like "Oh **** I have a fight coming up in 4 weeks and have to lose 30 pounds" He gave himself plenty of time

Btw, it was not less because Tarver has always weighed around then coming down from late. He said he did not weigh 218 pounds. You not believing him is because you don't want to be wrong. You don't take any of Hopkins performance into consideration either.

[Abstraction]

If Tarver was weight drained, so was Pavlik and Trinidad.

That's what you're trying to say.

If a Person goes in expecting to KO someone like Hopkins easily, but can't, they usually have no other strategy.

Pavlik and Trinidad both were as dumb founded as Tarver was, being feinted and countered every time. Not able to go at their own pace.

If Tarver was weight-drained, he would have eventually gassed in the latter rounds, and probably not got up in the intervals imo. Just look Other obviously weight-drained gyus have done in the past

But that was not the case, Tarver was looked the same after 12 rounds as he did before the 1st round.

[Benny Leonard]

We know it doesn't effect him because HE'S MADE 175 PERFECTLY FINE AFTER IT TOO. That's not that hard to imagine. You are not taking any of Hopkins' performance into consideration. He'd fire the right hand off and pretty much always hit with it. He'd move, so Tarver couldn't get into range and he'd hold when Tarver did get close. He made Tarver look weak.

You can't say he was drained because you have:

A. Hopkins performance which explains how he shut Tarver down
B. Him making 175 perfectly after
C. Tarver's word saying how he had been training for months to bring down the weight and how he was ready. It's not like he was like "Oh **** I have a fight coming up in 4 weeks and have to lose 30 pounds" He gave himself plenty of time

Btw, it was not less because Tarver has always weighed around then coming down from late. He said he did not weigh 218 pounds. You not believing him is because you don't want to be wrong. You don't take any of Hopkins performance into consideration either.

Why wouldn't you make it the next time if you already got your body back down to 175?
Roy made weight again as well at 175 after he moved back down but he looked like **** from then on...although healthier compared to that first fight in his return. His body had at least a little more time to get used to being back down at that weight but it was over for him.

I don't think Tarver was as dead as Roy was. But drained I do think is a possibility...just not dead like Casper-Jones.

Do you know what "plenty of time" would be to lose weight, specifically muscle weight that was said to have been added?

Fat can be stripped off quicker and even losing that isn't such a good idea to do even in short period of time. Muscle weight requires a different approach with decreasing Protein, Carbs, and Fat...all essential nutrients to keep the body healthy and thriving. Diets and workouts can change up how the body acts...specifically hormone function. And at Tarver's age, I would say it probably leaves him more vulnerable to mess up than a younger Man.

[Benny Leonard]

If Tarver was weight drained, so was Pavlik and Trinidad.

That's what you're trying to say.

If a Person goes in expecting to KO someone like Hopkins easily, but can't, they usually have no other strategy.

Pavlik and Trinidad both were as dumb founded as Tarver was, being feinted and countered every time. Not able to go at their own pace.

If Tarver was weight-drained, he would have eventually gassed in the latter rounds, and probably not got up in the intervals imo. Just look Other obviously weight-drained gyus have done in the past

But that was not the case, Tarver was looked the same after 12 rounds as he did before the 1st round.

Not really.

Tito looked fine and fit and came at Hopkins. Hopkins just countered his ass and stopped him in his tracks.

Pavlik: just a one dimensional fighter that was over-confident and was stopped in his tracks before he could do something...because he was slower than the Old Man and not nearly as smart or good.


Tarver just didn't seem strong to me from the start. That was my original impression when I saw the fight for the first time.

Bernard's work-rate against Tarver wasn't high.

But yes, I do take into consideration it was what Hopkins was doing to confuse Tarver.

[warp1432]

Why wouldn't you make it the next time if you already got your body back down to 175?
Roy made weight again as well at 175 after he moved back down but he looked like **** from then on...although healthier compared to that first fight in his return. His body had at least a little more time to get used to being back down at that weight but it was over for him.
.

Fair point, but he was not as badly effected against Hopkins. Again you are avoiding the issue of Hopkins' performance. Also Jones relied on speed a lot more then Tarver too, so Jones is going to be more effected by the weight loss. Tarver has technical boxing ability. Like the other guy said, Tarver did not fight like a drained fighter. He looked like a confused fighter because he couldn't solve anything Hopkins was doing to him. That wasn't because he "couldn't move" It's because Hopkins' gameplan was pretty much near perfect.

Tarver had professional conditioners working with him to drop the weight. It's a lot easier to drop it when you are working with professionals. The only thing that was messed up was he didn't know how to block the right hand of Hopkins.

It's simple to shut Tarver out and make him look flat when he has literally no answer for the right hand and Hopkins would clinch right after.

[catalinul]

He was weight drained IMO.

He looked like a zombie in there.

[Benny Leonard]

Fair point, but he was not as badly effected against Hopkins. Again you are avoiding the issue of Hopkins' performance. Also Jones relied on speed a lot more then Tarver too, so Jones is going to be more effected by the weight loss. Tarver has technical boxing ability. Like the other guy said, Tarver did not fight like a drained fighter. He looked like a confused fighter because he couldn't solve anything Hopkins was doing to him. That wasn't because he "couldn't move" It's because Hopkins' gameplan was pretty much near perfect.

Tarver had professional conditioners working with him to drop the weight. It's a lot easier to drop it when you are working with professionals. The only thing that was messed up was he didn't know how to block the right hand of Hopkins.

It's simple to shut Tarver out and make him look flat when he has literally no answer for the right hand and Hopkins would clinch right after.

You give way to much credit to those people. How did Oscar's trainer do?

Let's take Roy for example...who ended up doing it on his own (which was a dumb move...although it wasn't smart to come back down either and he should have retired after Ruiz...but....)

Mackie, who trained Roy to move up in weight, is one of the best in the business and a reporter I asked about Roy (who questioned Roy about why he didn't use Mackie to lose the weight) said Roy told him Mackie was good at putting on weight fast but not taking it off fast...something like that. Point being: even Mackie knows it takes time to lose that type of weight in a healthy manner.

Now I do recall reading Mackie trained M. Spinks for Larry Holmes and had Spinks strip some of his weight off and then rebuilt him back up...but that is the thing, he stripped him down and rebuilt him back up....with time.

I've asked a bodybuilder about it as well as other athletes I know that speak to trainers and nutrionists.

Your body can handle increasing weight because it thinks you are getting stronger for survival. To take it off, your body will resist because it feels like it is dying. Fat is the first thing your body will try to go after and then muscle after...but lose it to quickly and both get stripped off to quickly and you end up feeling lethargic. And decreased of proper nutrients can throw off your hormone/chemical levels in your body.

But hey, everybody is different and I'm not an expert on the subject. But, just because you are in the field and say you have this or that paper on the wall doesn't mean you are perfect either. Even Doctors screw up and don't know quite as much as they lead on and what people think.


In the end, it really doesn't matter that much to me because I don't think Tarver even at his peak beats Hopkins at his. But I was answering the question from TS.

[warp1432]

In every post you still duck the aspect of Hopkins' performance.

Also, Tarver didn't put on a ****load of weight. He put on some, there's a difference. He denies ever being 218. He had some struggle making weight, but he pulled through it and felt in great condition.

The most important aspect is Hopkins gameplan though. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

[Benny Leonard]

In every post you still duck the aspect of Hopkins' performance.

Also, Tarver didn't put on a ****load of weight. He put on some, there's a difference. He denies ever being 218. He had some struggle making weight, but he pulled through it and felt in great condition.

The most important aspect is Hopkins gameplan though. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

You do realize that a performance can be upped based on your opponent's condition, right?

Kind of like how Pac's performance was blown out of proportion when he faced Oscar or Douglas when he faced Tyson. True, they did what they had to do and looked great at doing it, but you still have to look at the opponent and how he came in.

Not saying Tarver was that bad but there is still a point to be made.

And yes, the fault is with the fighter for not coming in at his best.


I answered the question to the Topic. That was the only thing that was aksed. Was Tarver Tip-Top or weight-drained? I went with weight-drained compared.


Hopkins did some things to shut-down Tarver but that wasn't the question. I was looking just at Tarver from a phsyical performance. If I wanted to look at what Hopkins did and try to discredit him for shutting down other opponents and making them look bad then I would have went with the other posters point with saying Tito and Pavlik were weight-drained since Hopkins shut them down too. But I didn't and I gave credit to Hopkins for those wins against fighters that weren't weight-drained.

[Benny Leonard]

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/columns/story?columnist=rafael_dan&id=2475525

In December, on the movie's Las Vegas set, Tarver stopped to chat with a reporter who was making a cameo in the scene. When asked if he planned to fight at light heavyweight again, Tarver broke into a broad, toothy grin, patted his stomach and said he was done at light heavyweight. When asked how much he weighed, Tarver was specific: "I'm 218 pounds today."

Tarver (24-3, 18 KOs) filmed the movie through January, and when no heavyweight fights of significance materialized, he had no real choice other than to return to light heavyweight for the biggest fight available.


That meant a showdown with former undisputed middleweight champ Bernard Hopkins (46-4-1, 32 KOs).

It also meant that Tarver would have to shed almost 45 pounds in order to make weight for their "Fight to the Finish" on Saturday night (HBO PPV, 9 ET) at Boardwalk Hall