Tyson vs Lewis Primes

[them_apples]

I'll concede the point. There is also no evidence to support the idea that under Rooney he could cope with a tall World-class fighter with a good jab.



I rank him the same. I'm not saying he isn't World-class and I haven't said that. I have said that he didn't beat another World-class fighter, save Larry Holmes who was well past his best.

that's a joke, if you want to argue who you think cuold beat him, fine. Tyson never had problems with a good jab. "Holmes was past his best" yea well not past it enough to go the distance with Holyfield and beat Ray Mercer. most acknowledge he wasn't at his best, but he wasn't "shot" or "past it" like you claim.

Holmes still got knocked out in 4 rounds. That's rediculous, Even Ali managed to quell his last beatings into a stoppage.

I think a prime Holmes would have been a bit more of a handful, but the jab is one thing that Tyson was taught his entire career to avoid, it was of no use against a prime mike. Strength and power was what you needed to beat him. Lewis had it, but the fact that he's not very "tough" makes the fight hard to score.

[Mugwump]

Lewis by plenty. I can't resist laughing at this perceived "prime Tyson" around the Spinks fight. It's not difficult to look good against a guy who is beaten BEFORE he enters the ring. Spinks was terrified when he climbed the ropes. As was Berbick. Tyson merely added the coup de grace.

The FACT of the matter is that Tyson was a mental screwup. The demons that haunted him didn't suddenly materialise after the Spinks fight. They were ALWAYS THERE. Fortunately for him he never faced an opponent who could uncover them by having the balls to front up and expose him as the bully he was.

I just can't get to grips with the fanboil double-standards. Some of these idiots will jump over hoops to claim Mayweather (or some other fighter) is a fraud because he's never taken down the top fighters. Which top fighters did Tyson lay waste to? Berbick? Spinks? Tony Tubbs? Pinklon Thomas? Marvis Frazier? Christ on a bike! Lewis on a bad day would have knocked those guys into the next century. Bonecrusher Smith ****ing RAN for twelve rounds!! He barely threw a punch in anger.

The inescapable truth is that Tyson broke down and was taken down when he finally ran into a guy who wasn't beaten before he entered the ring, was prepared to fight and DID SO. And Douglas was hardly Joe Louis. He was a second-tier fighter at best.

How does a guy who knocks over a bunch of mediocre HWs (admittedly, in style) and then gets KTFO in the first fight in which he is really tested (never to recover) suddenly become worthy of the kind of praise we see in here? If a boxer (instead of a spectacular slugger) achieved success along similar lines there would be NSB posters lining up by the thousand to throw **** on him. Pure hipocrisy.

Pac Man, Ali, Frazier, Duran, SRR - these are guys who triumphed over (in some cases - a ton of) adversity. Guys who were prepared to go into the trenches and take a beating (from TOP fighters) in order to give one. The first time Tyson faced genuine adversity in the ring he was left horizontal. Finished.

Let's put "prime" Tyson and Lewis together (leaving aside the fact that Steward claimed Lewis never fought anywhere near his true potential) for debate. Sure, Tyson has the advantage of speed. Sure, he's a heavy hitter. But this notion that the first punch Tyson lands on Lewis the fight is over is nothing more than NSB fanboil wish-fulfillment. As has been demonstrated in the Youtube link - Lewis could take a punch. He took punches as hard or harder than anything Tyson has thrown and kept coming. Lewis's problem was getting lazy and unfocussed and allowing an opponent to catch him when he least expected it. You can bet your ass Lewis's focus would be pin-sharp against Tyson - as it was when he finally faced him.

Tyson would probably win the first two, perhaps three rounds. He may even hurt Lewis. But during this time Lewis (like Mayweather) will be finding his range. By the fourth he'll have his jab working. By the fifth he'll start with those chopping overhand rights - opening up cuts above both eyes. By the sixth Tyson won't know his ass from his elbow. Lewis will be hitting him with uppercut after uppercut (a punch that Tyson was always susceptible to). The mental fragility that Tyson managed to hide against earlier, weaker opponents will suddenly be uncovered. He's a bully. And like all bullies - he fears to be bullied. And Lewis IS bullying him. Pushing him around the ring like a stuffed teddy bear. The child inside him will look for a way out - like it did in the Holyfield fight. He'll low blow. Perhaps he'll take a bite out of some part of Lewis. DQd. If not that he'll do what he did when he was beaten by Lewis - stand in the middle of the ring, punched-out - taking hit after hit. Standing on his feet for as long as possible (because he knows that his "baddest man on the planet" label would dissolve like morning mist in the sun if he quit). Eventually Lewis would pound him into the canvas.

[NakiFan]

What you people need to realise is that Mike Tyson is a fabrication of epic proportions. Mike Tyson is a guy that through fear, intimidation and a limited but effective arsenal looked amazing against lesser fighters.

Against James Douglas, a man going through the emotional windmill after the death of his mother Tyson faced a man who just didn't care if he got hurt. Douglas took Tysons best and kept coming until Tyson wilted, he'd never be the same again.

Lennox Lewis is a man with more tools than Tyson, however Lewis was lazy, he allowed Oliver Mcall to beat him, he did the same against Rahman, he avenged these losses easily. In a way the losses galvanised him and made him more determined.

Lewis has numerous obsticles in his way when trying to get historical respect.

1. Laziness (Manny Steward said Lewis never fought to full potential, Lewis showed up out of shape vs rahman and paid the price.)

2. Boring Style (Lewis was a boxer, not a brawler like Tyson, or a flashy entertainer like ali, lewis did enough to get the job done, rarely more. If Lewis could win the race without getting out of first gear he'd do it)

3. Not American/ not percieved by many as british (Lewis nationality affected his fanbase, he had little or no hype around him most of the time)

[Dave Rado]

I usually agree with your posts, Mugwump, but not this one.

I can't resist laughing at this perceived "prime Tyson" around the Spinks fight. It's not difficult to look good against a guy who is beaten BEFORE he enters the ring. Spinks was terrified when he climbed the ropes. As was Berbick. Tyson merely added the coup de grace.

Why do so many people completely miss the point that the Spinks fight only gets mentioned because it marked the end of Tyson's prime and the start of his decline, and not on the basis of the fight itself?

In any case, Spinks was far from unique in freezing against a perceived ogre - many of Foreman's and Liston's opponents, did too; but people don't write off their wins against the likes of Norton and Patterson the way they write off Tyson's. And despite Spinks' obvious fear, Tyson did box very well in that fight.

But it was more his performances in the fights leading up to the Spinks one, not the Spinks one itself, that Tyson's peak is judged on.

As for your claim that Berbick froze out of fear, Berbick's problem was his ****** tactics: he didn't freeze at all, he tried to trade and to show how macho he was, and it backfired.

The FACT of the matter is that Tyson was a mental screwup. The demons that haunted him didn't suddenly materialise after the Spinks fight. They were ALWAYS THERE. Fortunately for him he never faced an opponent who could uncover them by having the balls to front up and expose him as the bully he was.

I'm not convinced that Lewis had the toughness to expose him if they'd fought when Tyson was still with Rooney. And IMO you're seriously underestimating Tyson's boxing skills at that time.

I just can't get to grips with the fanboil double-standards. Some of these idiots will jump over hoops to claim Mayweather (or some other fighter) is a fraud because he's never taken down the top fighters.

No, it's because they think Mayweather has avoided some top fighters. Tyson cleared out his division at that time. There was nobody back then whom he should have faced and didn't.

Which top fighters did Tyson lay waste to? Berbick? Spinks? Tony Tubbs? Pinklon Thomas?

All of those, and also Biggs, Tucker, Smith and Holmes, were top ten fighters when he fought them, and almost all were former or actual title holders . No one else beat any of them as easily as Tyson did.

Christ on a bike! Lewis on a bad day would have knocked those guys into the next century.

Lewis on a bad day was iced by McCall and Rahman; on a fairly good day, he struggled to narrowly beat Ray Mercer (and some thought Mercer should have been given the decision), and struggled against Bruno and was even outboxed by Bruno at times; and on his best form, he struggled twice to beat a past his prime Holyfield. On a good day he would certainly have beaten all the guys you mentioned, but he wouldn't have knocked many of them into the next century, and on a bad day, he might even have lost.

Bonecrusher Smith ****ing RAN for twelve rounds!! He barely threw a punch in anger.

In the first couple of rounds he tried to land punches and was countered each time with big punches in return. He decided then that he would get knocked out quickly if he continued to make a fight of it, and went into survival mode.

And Douglas was hardly Joe Louis. He was a second-tier fighter at best.

That's been discussed exhaustively elsewhere in this thread. Tyson didn't train, had started to decline before that fight, and Douglas gave the performance of his life. That version of Douglas would certainly have beaten the versions of McCall and Rahman who beat Lewis.

But this notion that the first punch Tyson lands on Lewis the fight is over is nothing more than NSB fanboil wish-fulfillment.

No it's nothing more than a straw man, because no one has made the claim. What is nothing more than NSB fanboil wish-fulfillment is the idea that the version of Tyson who was with Rooney, who used constant head movement, and good overall boxing skills, would have been easy for Lewis to keep at bay with the jab all night. It would have been a very tough fight for both of them, IMO, and not at all one-sided as you imagine.

[The_Demon]

gota go with lewis,he had the jab to keep tyson at bay and would take him out between 8-10 imo

[Dave Rado]

Against James Douglas,

I stopped reading when I got to this. You may as well judge Lewis on the Rahman and McCall fights. And it's been covered exhaustively earlier in the thread.

[The_Demon]

Lewis by plenty. I can't resist laughing at this perceived "prime Tyson" around the Spinks fight. It's not difficult to look good against a guy who is beaten BEFORE he enters the ring. Spinks was terrified when he climbed the ropes. As was Berbick. Tyson merely added the coup de grace.

The FACT of the matter is that Tyson was a mental screwup. The demons that haunted him didn't suddenly materialise after the Spinks fight. They were ALWAYS THERE. Fortunately for him he never faced an opponent who could uncover them by having the balls to front up and expose him as the bully he was.

I just can't get to grips with the fanboil double-standards. Some of these idiots will jump over hoops to claim Mayweather (or some other fighter) is a fraud because he's never taken down the top fighters. Which top fighters did Tyson lay waste to? Berbick? Spinks? Tony Tubbs? Pinklon Thomas? Marvis Frazier? Christ on a bike! Lewis on a bad day would have knocked those guys into the next century. Bonecrusher Smith ****ing RAN for twelve rounds!! He barely threw a punch in anger.

The inescapable truth is that Tyson broke down and was taken down when he finally ran into a guy who wasn't beaten before he entered the ring, was prepared to fight and DID SO. And Douglas was hardly Joe Louis. He was a second-tier fighter at best.

How does a guy who knocks over a bunch of mediocre HWs (admittedly, in style) and then gets KTFO in the first fight in which he is really tested (never to recover) suddenly become worthy of the kind of praise we see in here? If a boxer (instead of a spectacular slugger) achieved success along similar lines there would be NSB posters lining up by the thousand to throw **** on him. Pure hipocrisy.

Pac Man, Ali, Frazier, Duran, SRR - these are guys who triumphed over (in some cases - a ton of) adversity. Guys who were prepared to go into the trenches and take a beating (from TOP fighters) in order to give one. The first time Tyson faced genuine adversity in the ring he was left horizontal. Finished.

Let's put "prime" Tyson and Lewis together (leaving aside the fact that Steward claimed Lewis never fought anywhere near his true potential) for debate. Sure, Tyson has the advantage of speed. Sure, he's a heavy hitter. But this notion that the first punch Tyson lands on Lewis the fight is over is nothing more than NSB fanboil wish-fulfillment. As has been demonstrated in the Youtube link - Lewis could take a punch. He took punches as hard or harder than anything Tyson has thrown and kept coming. Lewis's problem was getting lazy and unfocussed and allowing an opponent to catch him when he least expected it. You can bet your ass Lewis's focus would be pin-sharp against Tyson - as it was when he finally faced him.

Tyson would probably win the first two, perhaps three rounds. He may even hurt Lewis. But during this time Lewis (like Mayweather) will be finding his range. By the fourth he'll have his jab working. By the fifth he'll start with those chopping overhand rights - opening up cuts above both eyes. By the sixth Tyson won't know his ass from his elbow. Lewis will be hitting him with uppercut after uppercut (a punch that Tyson was always susceptible to). The mental fragility that Tyson managed to hide against earlier, weaker opponents will suddenly be uncovered. He's a bully. And like all bullies - he fears to be bullied. And Lewis IS bullying him. Pushing him around the ring like a stuffed teddy bear. The child inside him will look for a way out - like it did in the Holyfield fight. He'll low blow. Perhaps he'll take a bite out of some part of Lewis. DQd. If not that he'll do what he did when he was beaten by Lewis - stand in the middle of the ring, punched-out - taking hit after hit. Standing on his feet for as long as possible (because he knows that his "baddest man on the planet" label would dissolve like morning mist in the sun if he quit). Eventually Lewis would pound him into the canvas.

i know wot u mean,it makes so much sense that jeff lacy was called the next mike tyson,he didnt have the speed but imtimidation was a big weapon for him and as soon as he went up against someone who stood up to him look what happened.not comparing the 2 in any other way though!

[NakiFan]

I stopped reading when I got to this. You may as well judge Lewis on the Rahman and McCall fights. And it's been covered exhaustively earlier in the thread.

Difference is Lewis was caught napping while he was snoozing and out of shape, Tyson got pummled over a whole fight and ktfo in his prime

[Dave Rado]

Difference is Lewis was caught napping while he was snoozing and out of shape, Tyson got pummled over a whole fight and ktfo in his prime

Tyson was even more out of shape then Lewis was, and he was no longer in his prime, his prime ended when he split up with Rooney.

And the version of Douglas who beat Tyson would have beaten Rahman and McCall.

[P4P GOAT]

Tyson could hurt Lewis because he could hurt anyone he hit but i think 7/8 of 10 times he loses to Lewis. Lewis is a defensive bordering on negative counter puncher, he would not give a shorter man an advantage he does not have, thats why Tua got no where near him. He was a disciplined HW with a smarter Boxing brain than Mike Tyson.


Lewis lapses in concentration means he could be knocked out by a prime Tyson but i cant see it, he is too good defensive against shorter opponents, and he has a better Boxing brain.

Tommy Morrison could not get close to him either.

As for the guy who mentioned Ray Mercer. Ray Mercer would of given Tyson all he could handle to. Ray Mercer gave Cooper,Holy,Lewis and Witherspoon tough fights.