Tyson vs Lewis Primes

[Dave Rado]

Tyson didn't match up well against taller opponents who knew how to use their jab.

That's a huge over-simplification, if we're talking only about the version of Tyson that had Rooney in his corner. Biggs and Tucker were both 6'5", and Bonecrusher Smith was 6'4", and he out-jabbed all of them. Although they were far being in Lewis's class, they were all top ten fighters at the time, with decent jabs.

Lewis wouldn't have been afraid of Tyson either.

Lewis looked quite scared to me in the first round of their fight, and that was against a completely shot version of Tyson. I thought Lewis also looked quite scared at times in the Bruno fight.

No doubt that Tyson would have a knockout chance, but Lewis had a great chin contrary to the bull****.

He had a decent chin, not a great one; and as someone else said, he sometimes pawed with his jab, he didn't have a Larry Holmes-like jab. And the version of Tyson who had Rooney in his corner was a very good boxer, he would have had more than just a puncher's chance against Lewis.

[D-MiZe]

Cus already died by the time Tyson won his first title...but the connection yes: CATSKILL TEAM/Rooney/Cayton/Jacobs. Cus was used as a motivational tool for Tyson to get to the title and beyond with unifying it. It was interesting to hear Tyson's thoughts on this with regards to Cus in saying that had he lived it would have all been different.
I'm kind of surprised they still couldn’t keep him on track to finish it with getting to 50-0, but that is on Tyson...although I don't know exactly what was going on at the time with Mike's relationship with Rooney and others. It just fell apart.

I did hear once that after Mike got rid of Rooney that he planned on bringing him back. I think he told a reporter that...not sure. But, something happened...I think Rooney went through with suing him and that was that.

Tyson seemed to know he was on the slide which he kind of noted after the Bruno I fight in the post-fight press conference.

Cus was huge for Tyson.

Tyson has always said that he lost his drive and determination to fight after Cus had died. I guess Tyson was just afraid and didn't know what to do when he got rid of Rooney.

Wasn't Atlas involved with Tyson at one point?

[Dave Rado]

I'm kind of surprised they still couldn’t keep him on track to finish it with getting to 50-0, but that is on Tyson...although I don't know exactly what was going on at the time with Mike's relationship with Rooney and others. It just fell apart.

My understanding was the Don King managed to get inside Tyson's head and turn him against Rooney/Clayton.

[Benny Leonard]

Cus was huge for Tyson.

Tyson has always said that he lost his drive and determination to fight after Cus had died. I guess Tyson was just afraid and didn't know what to do when he got rid of Rooney.

Wasn't Atlas involved with Tyson at one point?

Atlas was out by the time was 16 I think. In came Rooney after who was a much better fit for Tyson personality wise as a trainer goes. Tyson actually said in an interview (leading up to the Williams fight) that Atlas basically wasn't that good of a trainer. If you look at how much Tyson improved with Rooney, and maybe this was the natural progression of a fighter that is maturing...he got much better as a fighter under Rooney; even after Cus had died. What Atlas may have brought was to keep a better discipline over Tyson but I don't know if Rooney failed on this either...and, Tyson did say in an interview that there was only one person he would basically sumbit to and that was Cus.

What Cus did for him according to Mike was basically to control all aspects of his life and give him key advice on how to do things. Tyson did say in an interview that Cus taught him what he needed to know to succeed in life and as a Champion but he didn't quite listen to the advice which led to his demise. However, and this goes with the Tyson interview on Charlie Rose about Cus....I think the point is that even if Tyson knew what to do, it was Cus that kept him in line.


When I look at interviews and fights and compare them with....With Rooney and without...Tyson was different. He seemed less confident and in fights, it didn't appear he wanted to be there. Even in the Ruddock fight which was after Douglas and Tyson seemed to have motivation again to recapture the title...when he is in the corner and his trainer is giving him advice, it just looked like Tyson didn't want to be there...but the bell rang and he went out to fight. But he wasn't doing what he should have been doing in those two fights against Ruddock either.
But one thing about Tyson is that he knows how to fake it and sell a fight.
He seemed confused on what to do next and how to fix it.
Even if he knew Rooney was good for him, I'm not sure what the relationship was at the time and if he thought he could mend things together again with Rooney to get himself back on track (after noticing he declined against Bruno...or even after Douglas). I think in many ways it's hard for a "Man" to re-establish a relationship with another Man after a break-up when other things are influencing you and in a Macho World that has egos.
I don't know though...it's hard to say. Tyson would be better served to talk about this which I thought was missing from Tobak's questions

[P4P Opinion]

That's a huge over-simplification, if we're talking only about the version of Tyson that had Rooney in his corner. Biggs and Tucker were both 6'5", and Bonecrusher Smith was 6'4", and he out-jabbed all of them. Although they were far being in Lewis's class, they were all top ten fighters at the time, with decent jabs.

Well no ****! I didn't want to get into a huge discussion, as I've done this many times before. I really don't see your point here however. So, because Tyson outjabbed Biggs, Tucker and Smith (three very average fighters), he can outjab Lennoz Lewis? The same Lennox Lewis who had the best heavyweight jab since Larry Holmes?

Lewis looked quite scared to me in the first round of their fight, and that was against a completely shot version of Tyson. I thought Lewis also looked quite scared at times in the Bruno fight.

I didn't see it myself, but it should be noted anyway that the shot version of Mike Tyson was arguably more frightening. Not as a boxer, but because he was unpredictably insane (see earbite and legbite for details). Fear goes quickly once you realise you have what it takes to beat someone anyway. If Lewis landed a few stiff jabs, he'd realise - not that I'm convinced he'd be afraid.

[He had a decent chin, not a great one; and as someone else said, he sometimes pawed with his jab, he didn't have a Larry Holmes-like jab. And the version of Tyson who had Rooney in his corner was a very good boxer, he would have had more than just a puncher's chance against Lewis.

Forget the chin issue for a second, as we basically agree that it was good. Lewis may have pawed with his jab and yes, he didn't have a Larry Holmes jab, but he had an excellent jab. It is probably fair to say he had more than a puncher's chance, but I don't see any evidence of Tyson beating a World-class heavyweight and I don't see a good style match-up for him.

[D-MiZe]

Atlas was out by the time was 16 I think. In came Rooney after who was a much better fit for Tyson personality wise as a trainer goes. Tyson actually said in an interview (leading up to the Williams fight) that Atlas basically wasn't that good of a trainer. If you look at how much Tyson improved with Rooney, and maybe this was the natural progression of a fighter that is maturing...he got much better as a fighter under Rooney; even after Cus had died. What Atlas may have brought was to keep a better discipline over Tyson but I don't know if Rooney failed on this either...and, Tyson did say in an interview that there was only one person he would basically sumbit to and that was Cus.

What Cus did for him according to Mike was basically to control all aspects of his life and give him key advice on how to do things. Tyson did say in an interview that Cus taught him what he needed to know to succeed in life and as a Champion but he didn't quite listen to the advice which led to his demise. However, and this goes with the Tyson interview on Charlie Rose about Cus....I think the point is that even if Tyson knew what to do, it was Cus that kept him in line.


When I look at interviews and fights and compare them with....With Rooney and without...Tyson was different. He seemed less confident and in fights, it didn't appear he wanted to be there. Even in the Ruddock fight which was after Douglas and Tyson seemed to have motivation again to recapture the title...when he is in the corner and his trainer is giving him advice, it just looked like Tyson didn't want to be there...but the bell rang and he went out to fight. But he wasn't doing what he should have been doing in those two fights against Ruddock either.
But one thing about Tyson is that he knows how to fake it and sell a fight.
He seemed confused on what to do next and how to fix it.
Even if he knew Rooney was good for him, I'm not sure what the relationship was at the time and if he thought he could mend things together again with Rooney to get himself back on track (after noticing he declined against Bruno...or even after Douglas). I think in many ways it's hard for a "Man" to re-establish a relationship with another Man after a break-up when other things are influencing you and in a Macho World that has egos.
I don't know though...it's hard to say. Tyson would be better served to talk about this which I thought was missing from Tobak's questions

I remember reading somewhere that Atlas pulled a gun on Tyson, which is why he left Atlas.

[Benny Leonard]

My understanding was the Don King managed to get inside Tyson's head and turn him against Rooney/Clayton.

That's basically what was said.


I think Rooney or maybe it was someone else that said the reason why Rooney was ousted was because Rooney was not only the trainer but the advisor to Mike. And Rooney would have been straight with Mike with everything King was doing. So without Rooney in the picture, King has more power. With Rooney in the picture, Rooney stands up to Don and tells him to **** off.

You can look at the interviews and fights while Tyson was with Rooney and see how Mike looked towards Rooney for the answers and what respect he had for him at the time.


Not sure exactly what is true, but I did hear once that part of the problem with Rooney and Tyson that allowed for a crack in the relationship was that Rooney may have said something to Tyson about Robin which made Tyson upset.

It would be better for Rooney to answer as well as Tyson.

Somebody else may know a lot more on the topic with what they actually said instead of just speculation.

[Benny Leonard]

I remember reading somewhere that Atlas pulled a gun on Tyson, which is why he left Atlas.

Atlas was booted out after the gun incident.

There was an interview with Rooney that told his side to the story and I think he said part of the reason why Atlas was given the boot was not so much that Atlas pulled the gun as it was with Tyson who became so enraged after the incident that Tyson said out loud that he was going to find Atlas and kill him. So....Cus stopped it.

[Dave Rado]

I really don't see your point here however.

My point was that there is no evidence to back up your claim that the version of Tyson who had Rooney in his corner couldn't cope with tall fighters with a decent jab.

I don't see any evidence of Tyson beating a World-class heavyweight.

I'm amused by the extremes you get on these forums, some Tyson-worshippers claiming that at his peak (under Rooney) he was the GOAT, and at the other extreme people like you claiming that he wasn't even world class under Rooney. I don't think you'll find a single reputable boxing expert that subscribes to either extreme, most rate him at or around #10 in the ATG heavyweight lists.

[Benny Leonard]

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