Larry says Mayweather beats Pernell Whiitaker and badly

[Silencers]

Whitaker would beat Mayweather prime for prime IMO.

[JHAVIS]

Pernell Whitaker has arguably the greatest defense of all time, certainly the best of the past 25 years. And that he was only 5'6" actually helped him...

These young bucks...

Ive heard a few boxing historians say Mayweathers defense was the best. I rewatched the Hatton fight and on youtube and the commentator said he's been watching pro fights in person for over 50 years and Mayweathers defense is the best he'e ever seen.

[JHAVIS]

I agree. I think Pernell would beat Mayweather comfortably i really do.

Man get out of here. Nobody beats this man comfortably

[BennyST]

I think one of the big things that is being overlooked here is the southpaw factor. I'm not going to go into much detail on why I think Whitaker would win, but I'm just going to look at this very important point.

Mayweather's defense is largely based on fighting against righties. The 'Philly Shell' can be adapted to fighting lefties, as Toney has been able to do so well, but it is based on fighting against righties. It is also most effective as an inside counter style. When it comes down to it, the style that Mayweather excels at is brilliant against right-handed, inside pressure fighters or brawlers.

We have seen time and time again Mayweather dominate that style thoroughly using his techniques. This is mainly because you use your right arm/elbow to block left hooks to the body and then counter with the same hand ie. A right uppercut or straight right. You also use your right glove to parry or block jabs, which you can then shoot your own right over the top. The left shoulder is used for the main right hand of the opponent and is the main counter weapon. It makes it difficult to see the counter right coming back because it's covered well and because the opponent is often off balance and out of position after throwing their right thinking they've got the shot.

You can see that it's the perfect defense against righties. It covers the left jab, left hook and sets up perfect counters and also covers the big right hand and, once again, sets up the counter naturally. The one big problem is that it can be difficult to adapt it against southpaws. Especially a slick southpaw that fights on the outside. All the punches come at the wrong angle. Right hooks coming over the top and behind the shoulder, right jabs that don't set up any decent counter opportunities when shrugged off the shoulder or parried and straight lefts that are also difficult to counter because of the opponents left shoulder being in the way.

I think that Mayweather would feel the need to lead in this fight because Pea would be fighting from the outside and therefore would not fall into his counter game. The thing is though that when Mayweather does this, it falls into Pea's game plan of Mayweather on offense and Pea on counter defense. That makes it Pea's fight. Nonetheless, I don't think that the way they would actually fight each other is as important as the southpaw factor in this fight. People might say that Mayweather would adapt quickly enough to the southpaw style, as he did against Judah, but, I don't think Judah is the type of guy that is not hard to adapt against. We saw Clottey adapt to Judah much quicker than did Mayweather and do a lot more damage with the straight right. Judah is, when it comes down to it, rather easy to catch and not really a defensive specialist like Pea. Nonetheless, Judah showed punches that gave Mayweather a lot of difficulty.

See, both Pea and Mayweather are their best against less skilled, offensive pressure fighters. So, what would be the big factor in deciding between them when it came down to a fight that would be fought largely on the outside where Mayweather's style of defense doesn't come into play as much? One would be the southpaw style of Pea, and the other would be that I think Mayweather would tend to lead in this fight as opposed to trying to counter.

Let's say that two fighters of equal skill are to face off. Both have similar styles in that they're defensive. The deciding point would be who gets to fight their fight? I think Pea, which means he takes it. His southpaw, defensive counter style negates a lot of Mayweather defensive counter style and also Pea's was based a little more on the outside as opposed to Mayweather's inside fighting. That means that Pea gets to fight his fight and that Mayweather would be off his game having to lead, facing a southpaw and having to do it against a guy that is most comfortable against righties coming at him. Pea UD for me.

[JHAVIS]

[QUOTE=BennyST;4693178]I think one of the big things that is being overlooked here is the southpaw factor. I'm not going to go into much detail on why I think Whitaker would win, but I'm just going to look at this very important point.

Mayweather's defense is largely based on fighting against righties. The 'Philly Shell' can be adapted to fighting lefties, as Toney has been able to do so well, but it is based on fighting against righties. It is also most effective as an inside counter style. When it comes down to it, the style that Mayweather excels at is brilliant against right-handed, inside pressure fighters or brawlers.

We have seen time and time again Mayweather dominate that style thoroughly using his techniques. This is mainly because you use your right arm/elbow to block left hooks to the body and then counter with the same hand ie. A right uppercut or straight right. You also use your right glove to parry or block jabs, which you can then shoot your own right over the top. The left shoulder is used for the main right hand of the opponent and is the main counter weapon. It makes it difficult to see the counter right coming back because it's covered well and because the opponent is often off balance and out of position after throwing their right thinking they've got the shot.

You can see that it's the perfect defense against righties. It covers the left jab, left hook and sets up perfect counters and also covers the big right hand and, once again, sets up the counter naturally. The one big problem is that it can be difficult to adapt it against southpaws. Especially a slick southpaw that fights on the outside. All the punches come at the wrong angle. Right hooks coming over the top and behind the shoulder, right jabs that don't set up any decent counter opportunities when shrugged off the shoulder or parried and straight lefts that are also difficult to counter because of the opponents left shoulder being in the way.

I think that Mayweather would feel the need to lead in this fight because Pea would be fighting from the outside and therefore would not fall into his counter game. The thing is though that when Mayweather does this, it falls into Pea's game plan of Mayweather on offense and Pea on counter defense. That makes it Pea's fight. Nonetheless, I don't think that the way they would actually fight each other is as important as the southpaw factor in this fight. People might say that Mayweather would adapt quickly enough to the southpaw style, as he did against Judah, but, I don't think Judah is the type of guy that is not hard to adapt against. We saw Clottey adapt to Judah much quicker than did Mayweather and do a lot more damage with the straight right. Judah is, when it comes down to it, rather easy to catch and not really a defensive specialist like Pea. Nonetheless, Judah showed punches that gave Mayweather a lot of difficulty.

See, both Pea and Mayweather are their best against less skilled, offensive pressure fighters. So, what would be the big factor in deciding between them when it came down to a fight that would be fought largely on the outside where Mayweather's style of defense doesn't come into play as much? One would be the southpaw style of Pea, and the other would be that I think Mayweather would tend to lead in this fight as opposed to trying to counter.

Let's say that two fighters of equal skill are to face off. Both have similar styles in that they're defensive. The deciding point would be who gets to fight their fight? I think Pea, which means he takes it. His southpaw, defensive counter style negates a lot of Mayweather defensive counter style and also Pea's was based a little more on the outside as opposed to Mayweather's inside fighting. That means that Pea gets to fight his fight and that Mayweather would be off his game having to lead, facing a southpaw and having to do it against a guy that is most comfortable againighties coming at him. Pea UD for me.[/ Floyd would just adjust and become the aggressor like he did in the Judah fight. Pea was far from being a power puncher. Floyd would take risks and exchange against Pea knowing he has limited power also

[BennyST]

floyd cant be hit in the pocket and counters 10 times better than whitaker with twice the power

Wasn't it the southpaw Corley who was tagging Mayweather pretty well in the pocket with right hooks? Castillo also did pretty well there in their first fight as did Judah for his usual good first few rounds.

Everyone can be hit, Floyd is no different, neither was Pea or Locche, Toney, Hopkins, Charles, Benitez, Duran etc etc etc. This fight has 'Advantage Pea' written on it though. Mayweather's biggest weakness is southpaws and one that has brilliant defense, a great jab and very, very good body punching will really put him in a lot of trouble. A lot more than you've seen anyone be able to give him in his career so far because he has fought much, much lesser fighters with some similar qualities and had problems with them.

If we say that both have equal skills, then how do we find a winner? We look at their individual weaknesses and strengths. Mayweather's big weakness is against southpaws and fast, counter punchers that work off a great jab and can fight just as well, if not better, on the inside. Those are all Pea's biggest strengths.

The only thing we can truly go off though is, as Manchine already said, who fought and beat the better opposition? Pea did, by far, and that is absolutely non-debatable.

[wmute]

I think one of the big things that is being overlooked here is the southpaw factor. I'm not going to go into much detail on why I think Whitaker would win, but I'm just going to look at this very important point.

Mayweather's defense is largely based on fighting against righties. The 'Philly Shell' can be adapted to fighting lefties, as Toney has been able to do so well, but it is based on fighting against righties. It is also most effective as an inside counter style. When it comes down to it, the style that Mayweather excels at is brilliant against right-handed, inside pressure fighters or brawlers.

We have seen time and time again Mayweather dominate that style thoroughly using his techniques. This is mainly because you use your right arm/elbow to block left hooks to the body and then counter with the same hand ie. A right uppercut or straight right. You also use your right glove to parry or block jabs, which you can then shoot your own right over the top. The left shoulder is used for the main right hand of the opponent and is the main counter weapon. It makes it difficult to see the counter right coming back because it's covered well and because the opponent is often off balance and out of position after throwing their right thinking they've got the shot.

You can see that it's the perfect defense against righties. It covers the left jab, left hook and sets up perfect counters and also covers the big right hand and, once again, sets up the counter naturally. The one big problem is that it can be difficult to adapt it against southpaws. Especially a slick southpaw that fights on the outside. All the punches come at the wrong angle. Right hooks coming over the top and behind the shoulder, right jabs that don't set up any decent counter opportunities when shrugged off the shoulder or parried and straight lefts that are also difficult to counter because of the opponents left shoulder being in the way.

I think that Mayweather would feel the need to lead in this fight because Pea would be fighting from the outside and therefore would not fall into his counter game. The thing is though that when Mayweather does this, it falls into Pea's game plan of Mayweather on offense and Pea on counter defense. That makes it Pea's fight. Nonetheless, I don't think that the way they would actually fight each other is as important as the southpaw factor in this fight. People might say that Mayweather would adapt quickly enough to the southpaw style, as he did against Judah, but, I don't think Judah is the type of guy that is not hard to adapt against. We saw Clottey adapt to Judah much quicker than did Mayweather and do a lot more damage with the straight right. Judah is, when it comes down to it, rather easy to catch and not really a defensive specialist like Pea. Nonetheless, Judah showed punches that gave Mayweather a lot of difficulty.

See, both Pea and Mayweather are their best against less skilled, offensive pressure fighters. So, what would be the big factor in deciding between them when it came down to a fight that would be fought largely on the outside where Mayweather's style of defense doesn't come into play as much? One would be the southpaw style of Pea, and the other would be that I think Mayweather would tend to lead in this fight as opposed to trying to counter.

Let's say that two fighters of equal skill are to face off. Both have similar styles in that they're defensive. The deciding point would be who gets to fight their fight? I think Pea, which means he takes it. His southpaw, defensive counter style negates a lot of Mayweather defensive counter style and also Pea's was based a little more on the outside as opposed to Mayweather's inside fighting. That means that Pea gets to fight his fight and that Mayweather would be off his game having to lead, facing a southpaw and having to do it against a guy that is most comfortable against righties coming at him. Pea UD for me.

That is a very good point, that Mayweather would have to be the aggressor or force the fight in close quarters, but I don't see it as being so decisive of the outcome.

I think you DO overlook two points. But what you and I think would be hte outcome really boils down to opinions

1) Mayweather has shown he is pretty damn good at being the aggressor

2) Mayweather had to be cautios with Judah's punches, because Judah knocks out people with one or a few punches. Whitaker is very far from that. (Which is also why Clottey, being sensibly bigger than Mayweather did not have to worry as much about the punches -not to mention that Judah took pretty good beatings in the Mayweather+Cotto fighs)

I said this for a long time. I think that at the end of the day, this fantasy matchup this boils down to the following. Pea's game is more polished at ONE thing, while Mayweather's game is more well rounded. If you want, Pea is 'one-dimensional' and PBF is not great at anything in particular, but excellent at everything.

EDIT: I hope it is clear what I mean by Pea being one dimensional and PBF not great at anything, before people on both sides jump on me.

So will Pea be able to do his thing in front of all the nuances Mayweather will be showing him? Who will get frustrated? Will anyone lose focus? On one hand I see the perfection of Pea's game, on the other I see Mayweather incredible focus and his ability to adapt. I am always inclined to go with versatility, pick the guy who has one extra answer to the puzzle in front of him (and Mayweather is the best at that) but it is a matter of opinion.

[wmute]

Wasn't it the southpaw Corley who was tagging Mayweather pretty well in the pocket with right hooks? Castillo also did pretty well there in their first fight as did Judah for his usual good first few rounds.

Everyone can be hit, Floyd is no different, neither was Pea or Locche, Toney, Hopkins, Charles, Benitez, Duran etc etc etc. This fight has 'Advantage Pea' written on it though. Mayweather's biggest weakness is southpaws and one that has brilliant defense, a great jab and very, very good body punching will really put him in a lot of trouble. A lot more than you've seen anyone be able to give him in his career so far because he has fought much, much lesser fighters with some similar qualities and had problems with them.

If we say that both have equal skills, then how do we find a winner? We look at their individual weaknesses and strengths. Mayweather's big weakness is against southpaws and fast, counter punchers that work off a great jab and can fight just as well, if not better, on the inside. Those are all Pea's biggest strengths.

The only thing we can truly go off though is, as Manchine already said, who fought and beat the better opposition? Pea did, by far, and that is absolutely non-debatable.

I completely disagree with leftys being a big weakness of Mayweather, the point you made in the other thread (he fights them more aggressively) is valid, but that does not seem like a weakness to me. AT ALL. In the Judah fight Mayweather was very effective at pressuring a guy who was faster and a harder puncher than he was. I don't call that a weakness.

Also I don't know where you get the one about who "fast counter punchers that work off a great jab and can fight just as well, if not better, on the inside" simply because I haven't seen Mayweather fight anyone like that.

(The post you are replying to "PBF does this 2x harder nd this 10x better" is ridiculous BTW)

[El Dominicano]

When did that myth start? The "Mayweather can't handle southpaws" Which is weird because he beat Chop Chop every round, he beat the crap out of Mitchell and he broke Zab down. Another thing since people base their opinions on the Zab fight...Whitaker don't have Zab's power! So best believe Mayweather ain't gonna be as cautious

I really don't understand how some would say so and so would clearly win...this would be a close fight...which can go either way

[wmute]

When did that myth start? The "Mayweather can't handle southpaws" Which is weird because he beat Chop Chop every round, he beat the crap out of Mitchell, Ndou and he broke Zab down. Another thing since people base their opinions on the Zab fight...Whitaker don't have Zab's power! So best believe Mayweather ain't gonna be as cautious

I really don't understand how some would say so and so would clearly win...this would be a close fight...which can go either way

I don't think ndou is a lefty (correct me in case). But I agree on your general point. if you combine Corley+Mitchell+Judah, he lost something like 5 rounds... and put a hurting on all of them.