Better legacy. Marciano or Mayweather Jr?

[BattlingNelson]

true but mayweather was the lineal champ 3 of those 5 times..and going from 130 and beating oscar for the wbc belt at 154 is a big accomplishment

Baldomir was a lineal champ and today Zsolt Erdei is the lineal champ a 175. It doesn't make them the best of the division by any means.

So picking up a belt is not necessarily worth a lot. It depends on who you beat to get it and Baldomir is really not a great win IMO.

Beating DLH was a great win yes. I am one of the few who enjoyed that fight and I would have like to see a rematch.

[Benny Leonard]

Charles was without a doubt past his prime but he was still a very good fighter. The first Marciano fight was one of his greatest performances.

Here's the fight that got Charles his title shot:





Bert Sugar says a lot of things... Charles was 26 when he killed Baroudi and went on to become a great heavyweight after that.



Walcott was an inconsistent fighter. He had many ugly losses but also great wins over Charles, Harold Johnson, Joey Maxim, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins...

He should've won the first fight against Louis, and was winning the second one until Louis caught him in the 11th.

You can see how inconsistent he was even against Marciano. The first fight was one of Walcott's best performances in which he gave Marciano hell for 13 rounds. In the second fight he was blown out in one round.

Jersey Joe Walcott
Uploaded by TheGreatA

I know, I know...Bert Sugar says a lot of things...sometimes I agree and other times, I don't. I thought I would throw his comment in there because he was the "historian" on this topic on Ringside. Sugar may also get a lot of his info from sources around at the time so saying Charles wasn't mentally quite the same killer fighter may not be off. I don't know personally; I haven't done a whole lot of research on the topic.

You can still be a winner and not be Mentally 100%. I've heard many say Robinson wasn't exactly the same fighter either after he killed someone in the ring. Charles and Robinson may have lost that killer in them that would seek and destroy...maybe kind of like Jones Jr. was said to have become after what happened to Gerald {his friend}. Ray Mancini also notes in his career that he wasn't the same mentally after he killed a fighter in the ring.

In the second fight he was blown out in one round

I wouldn't call it a blow out. Walcott was knocked down, but it looked to me he just got up to late. I've seen this with many fights back then where fighters would stay down until the count of 8 or 9 but couldn't jump up in time to beat the count...or, if the ref was at 9 by the time they were up the ref would just stop it. I wonder if this is why they started the standing 8 count...or was it around back then too?



Now this was brutal:

Ezzard Charles vs Jersey Joe Walcott III ko

[Benny Leonard]

Baldomir was a lineal champ and today Zsolt Erdei is the lineal champ a 175. It doesn't make them the best of the division by any means.

So picking up a belt is not necessarily worth a lot. It depends on who you beat to get it and Baldomir is really not a great win IMO.

Beating DLH was a great win yes. I am one of the few who enjoyed that fight and I would have like to see a rematch.

I agree with this way of thinking but tell that to many other posters who will come back and discredit a figther for not picking up the lineal title.

[Benny Leonard]

It was not a trick question. I dont know much about the fighting weights TBH. It's a bit off-topic but on appearance it seems to me that Pac is the smaller man compared to Mayweather.

Quite possible but he has thickened dramatically. So much so that he can't make weight at 135 and showed up at 147 by fight time for the Diaz fight. Even Roach said that Manny has matured physically.

Even in the fight against Oscar, remember Lampley even commentating about how big/thick Manny looked. It would be interesting to see Floyd and Manny stand next to each other. I would have said Manny was smaller, but now...I'm not to sure; they might be the same. Floyd is taller but Manny is thick now. If I had to pick one, I would still say Floyd is slightly the bigger man.

[BattlingNelson]

I agree with this way of thinking but tell that to many other posters who will come back and discredit a figther for not picking up the lineal title.

I know Benny. You know your stuff.

[Benny Leonard]

I know Benny. You know your stuff.

This is why I said I understood why Floyd took the fight with Baldomir, however; he should have fought the Big 3 {Margarito, Williams, and Cotto} or at least one of the three. Even when he stepped up to 147, he waisted two fights against Mitchell and Judah; two fighters Tszyu destroyed at 140.

Floyd could have at least fought more often to get one of these fighters in at some point.

I know Floyd may have been smaller than all three, or at least two out of the three, but a victory over at least one would have gave him some type of solid legacy at 147. And that is why I say his Legacy is under 147. The Hatton fight to me was just a make-up fight for the two refusals by Hatton to fight him there {at 140}. Plus, when he moved up to 147 he became so damn boring. The Mitchell figth was OK, but after that was sleepy time for me. Smart fighting, but boring fighting.

[TheGreatA]

You can still be a winner and not be Mentally 100%. I've heard many say Robinson wasn't exactly the same fighter either after he killed someone in the ring. Charles and Robinson may have lost that killer in them that would seek and destroy...maybe kind of like Jones Jr. was said to have become after what happened to Gerald {his friend}. Ray Mancini also notes in his career that he wasn't the same mentally after he killed a fighter in the ring.

They say Ezzard didn't have the 'killer instinct' anymore but it could be because he was fighting bigger men at heavyweight.

I've seen many of his heavyweight fights and he doesn't seem to lack anything, he went for the finish and often knocked out his opponents in brutal fashion.

Robinson didn't seem to lack any killer instinct either against LaMotta, Graziano, Turpin, Fullmer, etc. Those were brutal finishes.

I wouldn't call it a blow out. Walcott was knocked down, but it looked to me he just got up to late. I've seen this with many fights back then where fighters would stay down until the count of 8 or 9 but couldn't jump up in time to beat the count...or, if the ref was at 9 by the time they were up the ref would just stop it. I wonder if this is why they started the standing 8 count...or was it around back then too?

Walcott did say that he wasn't given the full count but he looked like a shot fighter in there and Rocky walked over him. Much different from what he was in the first fight against Marciano.