Duran is not a top ten ATG

[BennyST]

there is no need to unify when you recognized as the best fighter in that division. was floyd the lineal/ring 130 champ was he the ring/lineal 147 champ.

I thought so.

carlos baldomir was the legitimate linear unified champion, what's your [point.

what a hypocrite, you do realize that baldomir was stripped for the same reasons. so you don't care about unification as long as duran is fighting in that division.

How can you be recognised as the best in the division when you haven't fought everyone? So, you're saying that Mayweather doesn't even need to fight the champs, he should just be recognised as the unified champion or the proper champion because you think he's the best or most skilled even if he doesn't fight all the champs?

This is a point that I've noticed is just not getting through to you. There used to be two belts when Duran was fighting. The WBC and the WBA. That means that there were only two champions in each division. Ok? To have been the unified champion back then you would have had to beat the guy or both guys and you first had to become the top contender by beating all the other guys. In effect, today, it would be the same as going through every single contender first, then going up and beating every single alphabet title holder and then going up to beat the recognised true champion of the division.

So, let's say that today in the WW division the main guy is probably considered Margarito or Paul Williams...or wait, is it Clottey? Even when Baldomir had the unified title there was still another champion in the division and Baldomir was not recognised as the best fighter by any stretch. There is no other champion when it was unified back then. None. Only the one guy that everyone has to face to get any belt and they had had to go through everyone in the division from the unified champion or the only two champions to get that title. That is not needed today, unless you want to be the real unified champion, like Hopkins who had every single belt.

Also, you keep bringing up someone like Genaro who had 18 title defenses or something whereas a guy like Buchanan or even Marcel only had five or so each and saying that that makes him better. Tell me this Brandish, would Genaro have had all those if there had only been two belts altogether? You know he didn't have to face everyone? He could have one of those titles and no one really cares that much about it because there are another three titles to go for and you can pick and choose which one to go for. Also, if you are Hernandez' team or promoter you pick and choose the opponents instead of having to fight the top guy immediately. It is so different now and you just don't seem to get that.

This might make it easier to understand. Before and including Duran's era, how many titlists were there who had fought more than fifteen title defenses? You will struggle to find even a few. Now, since about 1980 or a bit later, maybe the late eighties, who many fighters have there been who have racked up more than fifteen title defenses? I can think of a lot off the top of my head. Guess why mate?

There have probably been as many, or probably a lot more, fighters in the last two decades that have racked up more than fifteen title defenses of the same belt than there have been in the entire history of the sport previous to those last couple of decades that have done the same thing. You dig what I'm saying? It's a hell of a lot easier to win a belt now and it's a hell of a lot easier to rack up a bunch of defenses because you aren't forced to face the best the division has to offer. That's got nothing to do with Duran or anything, it's just how boxing is now. $ mate, $.

You bring up Mayweather's title winning effort against Gatti at 140. In the '70's etc, Gatti would not have even held that belt and it would not have been for a title. It would have been just a normal fight with an older guy on his last legs and it would have been for nothing. It's the same with the 154 title that he fought Oscar for. Oscar got that off Mayorga who won the vacant title against Piccirillo. Again, Oscar would never have even held that belt back then and that fight would not have been for a title. Also, even if you were a champ back then, it was very, very rare that you could jump a division straight into a title fight. Even if you were a unified champ considered P4P number one by most, if you jumped into another division you would have had to work up through the ranks just like every other fighter, just like Duran did when he jumped to 147. Today's championship boxing is not the same.

[BennyST]

why didn't he ask hagler for a rematch, how come he never gave barkley a rematch (it was a very close controversial decison at the time many felt barkley had won) barkely wanted a rematch but duran chikened out as usual/

You've got to be kidding right? You're bring up the fact that Duran didn't ask for a rematch or didn't give Barkly one? Man, don't ***** about rematches if you've got Leonard higher than Duran. Duran gave everyone rematches immediately. He fought everyone, at any weight from the top contenders to the top champions. He gave Leonard the rematch immediately, whereas Leonard refused the rematch which Duran then asked for, until about ten years later of course when it really didn't matter who won because they were both ****ed.

What about the rematches Hearns and Hagler both wanted from Leonard? Each guy hassled for a rematch directly after their fights and neither got one, even though they were the most anticipated rematches in the sport at the time. Hearns eventually got one, and of course won the fight easily but got screwed, so don't bring up such a weak point as if it means anything.

Don't think I'm saying anything bad about Leonard with this, all I'm doing is pointing out the ridiculousness of that statement above. If you think it's bad that Duran didn't get a rematch or didn't give Barkly one, then what do you say about those fights Leonard didn't give?

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

"Duran is not a top ten ATG"

No!

[BennyST]

and azumah nelson was 39 when he faced genaro hernandez while not prime he only had 1 loss in 7 years, hardly a dinosaur and hardly shot.

I'm not going to bother with the rest apart from this one post, which seems to sum up everything that you do.

Nelson had one fight after Hernandez. One. He was 39 years old. His only loss before 1990 was against Sanchez when he had had only 14 fights as a pro. He gave Sanchez hell before being stopped in the fourteenth. You say he only lost once in the last seven years? He fought Hernandez in 97 right? Before '90 he only had one loss, no draws? By the time he fought Hernandez he had three losses and two draws? Hmmm, that's a bit off there Brandish.

Let's go over it shall we? He lost to Whitaker in '90, then he got the ****e beaten out of him by Fenech but got a draw in what is considered one of the great robberies of all time. He then got a draw and a loss against Leija just before the Hernandez fight. He should have actually had three losses and one draw in that seven years instead of the one loss you pretended. But, due to one of the great BS decisions ever he had two losses and two draws and after that loss he had one more fight and retired. He was done when he fought Hernandez. He wasn't just a little past prime as you try to make out, he was shot. He still took him to a SD as well. Five years earlier and he would have knocked Hernandez out cold. No doubt. Would have been a greater beating then what Oscar gave Hernandez four years earlier than Floyd.

If you keep bringing up fighters that were shot or whatever by the time Duran fought them then what was Hernandez when Floyd fought him? He retired after that fight you know after starting out in '84?

[BennyST]

"Duran is not a top ten ATG"

No!

I don't think anyone actually cares where he has him, it's why he has him there, and who he places above him for those exact ridiculous reasons.

[wpink1]

Benny.. I obviously disagree with Brandish on some points and I have Mayweather above Duran. However, tell me what division did duran beat the champion, the number one contenders, the top other champion, defend it successfully, etc.. NONE.

You guys get on here and try to paint a picture as if Duran dominated the lightweight division (which he did) and beat great foe after greaat foe, and whas revered as the most dominating fighter ever, then he challenge Ray at 147 and moved up fought through all the division's best and then destroyed ray,,,then he just became old and unfocsed in July of 1980 and everything after that he is not something we should judge Duran on, because he was soooooo great up until that. But we should judge moore fight, and forget all the ass kickings in between, then we should forget how many times he tried to get a title at 154 and 160, and only judge when he won, vs Barkly too.

Duran won titles at 147 legitimatelly. What happeneed in the rematch... If we minimize Dejesus in compariso to Duran, for going 1-3 vs Duran, why not Duran vs Leonard, for going 1-3 vs Leonard. I guess we will have to get bombarded by a whole slew of irrelevant and weakk excuses.."Duran was not focused in his loses, or He had a cramp vs Leonard, or he moved up and whole godly 12 pounds ( how many pound did mayweather, dlh, leonar,d mosley,pacman, etc move up, and who had to have 2 years of tune ups first..)

I agree that it was tougher back in the day with only 2 titles, but you still have to look at WHO THEY BEAT, THE QUALITY OF WHO THEY BEAT. Is Duran moving up beating Leonard = to Leonard moving up an beating Kalule? No, Duran deserves more Kudos.

Now Mayweather is behind Duran on my scorecard becaue beating gotti for the belt at 140, then Baldomir at 147, then shot DlH at 154 is not legendary. In fact it is simply nothing more than a good accomplishment. If mayweather had moved up and beat the fighters who duran faced and remained undefeated then that is one thing, or beat those that DLH faced tht is one thing, even Mosley, but the reality is the guys Mayweather faced are not top tier fighters. No where near it.

So in summary, Duran did not do what your on here saying a top fighter should do as he moves up either. Brandisk is right. Based on how you all hype up a fighter who really ****** outside of leoanrd as he moved up, 1-5 vs the best of his era, based on how you all just blow up duran more than he deserves, if Duran had done what Mayweather did, he would be called the greatest ever.....

I say duran fans compare Duran to Jones and on almost every point Jones comes up better

[pelonxsoldier28]

benitez - super welterweight

leonard - welterweight

hearns - super welterweight

hagler - middleweight

duran is a LIGHTWEIGHT.

for 12 years duran's only loss was to esteban dejesus. (which he avenged a couple of years later)

he was also the first man to ever beat sugar ray leonard. a prime sugar ray leonard.

threadstarter is a moron.

i'd have to agree

[wpink1]

benitez - super welterweight

leonard - welterweight

hearns - super welterweight

hagler - middleweight

duran is a LIGHTWEIGHT.

for 12 years duran's only loss was to esteban dejesus. (which he avenged a couple of years later)

he was also the first man to ever beat sugar ray leonard. a prime sugar ray leonard.

threadstarter is a moron.

hmmm I noticed several interesting things on this post.

Duran got beat by everyone on here. Leonard beat everyone on here.

2nd.Ray is a welter,, Hagler is a natural hmmm middle
Did pac-man move up and beat good fighters
did Roy Jones move up
Did mosley move up
Did DLH move up
Did Robinson Move up
did Armstrong move up
did Langford move up
did Hearns move up
did arguello move up
In fact who did nt move up....

So the point is, Duran move up like everyone else has, and he simply kept on getting his ass kicked, unlike most other fighters. Not only did he get his ass kicked by legends but also people like Dejesus, and Laing..All before the age of 34.

Who at lightweight that Duran beat was so great that Bert Sugar, Espn, or the ring magazine has thought highly enough of this fighter to rank them in their top 100 (bert sugar) top 50(espn) top 80 (the ring).

So what that says is Duran had a long lightwieght career in which he beat a lof bums, and at best several decent to good fighters. His only GREAT WIN vs a fighter that is considered a all time top pound per pound fighter was win over Sugar Ray leoanrd. A fight in which leonard CHOSE not to use his boxing skills, and Duran still only won by 1 round. 1 round reversed Duran loses. You bring up how duran should be given kudos for avenging his lose to Dejesus, then what about Leoanrd. It is the same isn't it?

__________________________________________________ _______________

Duran lost his 1st fight after only 4 years..unlike the myth you all try to portry that he had all these fights before he lost anything. He was 31-0. Compare that too Roy Jones who went 15 years, with our losing a fight (except for DQ), and roy moved up just like Duran did. He moved up and fought James toney, who may not be a Sugar Ray leoanrd, but James toney at the time was regarded as the pound per pound best in the world, had stopped nunn, and Barkley (this guy you all harp on is soo good that duran beat), beat mcCallum, littles,,,Roy beat this guy by 7pts on one card, 9 points on anther, and 11 points on the 3rd. Keep this in mind. Roy moved up to this seasoned peak Champion. Roy had not been seriouslyy tested yet. Toney is considered on almost every list as a top fighter all time pound per pound...and get this. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A FIGHTER THIS DOMINANT, PEAK, SEASONED, AND ROY HAVING MOVED UP TO HIM..... GET DOMINATED IN THIS WAY.. The fight was not close!

Has Duran ever had a performance against a top fighter he faced, like that. Hint his record vs fighters of this level is 1-5, and the one he won, if one round was reversed Duran lost....Ohh duran was at welter for 2years too by the time he faced Leoanrd, Roy jumped up to face toney. So again help me understand what Duran has done which puts him above Roy.

Duran did fight or win anything of consequence at 118 or 126. His weight class he did almost all his winning in was 135. You can try your best to say he went from 118-160, but the issue is where was he DOMINANT at, won titles at, and best the best at. That would be 135, 147... He did beat Moore and barkly at 154 and 160, but they were not the best. So you have a fighter that did what again...Compare that to Roy! What defenses did duran have at 147 or 154 or 160?

Lets examine this again..Roy at 160 beat Benard Hopkins not a shot Hopkins.either both where relativley young in their career, so Roy did not have any experience advantage here, and roy was supposed to pull out of this fight due to a fractured right hand. he didn't and he won..Duran quit before in a fight at age 29.

Roy beat at 168,,none other than James Toney. We already adddress toney..

Right there Roy has beaten 2 all time top fighers...Duran in his entire career he beat one, very closely and is only 1-2 vs that fighter

At 175, roy wins not a WBO, or ibf, or abc title he wins the WBC title. He also gets a dQ vs Griffith in his toughest test. A fight in which he had just dropped griffith (in route to a 10-8 round at least since there was time left). Griffith was a very good fighter. No i will not try make him out to be some legendary dominant fighter, like duran fans try to make marcel, Kyobashi, Buchanon in an attempt to bolster durans weak lightweight resume. However in the rematch, Roy ko'd him in 1 round. 1 ROUND!!!!! Roy then stops a top world class fighter and champion Hill with a body punch.. Roy then unfies the light heavyweight title.. and beats many champions and future champions...

At this point in his career he has had a long amateur career he had been a professional for 15 years, he has won titles in 3 divisions and has beaten 2 legends where he dominated them. He is still unbeaten by another fighter in the ring only a dq and he responded with a 1st round ko...There where no losses to fighters like Dejesus or laing. Roy is 33 years old. 50 fights.. No legit loses... Three titles in 3 different division where he did beat the best, and defended vs the best.

Now he steps up an additional 20 pounds to beat a heavyweight champion. Not the best but a legitmate heavyweight fighter who is the champion. He also is outweighed by 23 pounds at the official weigh in. Keep in mind this is in addition too the fact that roy had to add 18 pounds not 5, 10, or 13 but add 18 pounds to meet a man that he still is outweight by 23 pounds at the weight in. This fighter is not 33 yrs old, with a record of 38-4-1 Not great but he clearly is not a pushover at heavyweight. Roy not only outboxed him, but in several rounds he took the fight to him, giving and taking with this man. Roy easily wins this fight.

Roy at this time has won 4 titles, no one has ever came close to beating him except for the DQ that Roy had and avenged in 1 round. Roy is now 35 years old no loses, then he has to lose weight and do irreversable damage to his body by shedding not fat , but muscle to get back to 175. He barel pulls out the 1st fight with Tarver, but he clearly is not the roy we all know. We are talking about a man so supremly gifted that he played in a semi pro bball game,, flew back to the fight, and still whipped his opponent, never tired in a fight. Now all of a sudden he could not even move around the ring after 4 rounds, and still toughed it out to win the first fight. This was not roy and you never ever see roy again in the ring. He then gets his ass repeatedly kicked through out the rest of his career.

You tell me how Duran stacks up against that.....1-5 vs the best he ever faced, moved up just like Duran. I am only holding Duran to fights up to age 34. Duran never successfully defended, unified, any title above 135. Help me understand. I am not talking about Mayweather or Leonard here, I am tallking about Roy Jones..

[Brandish]

For mayweather he has a lot of very very good wins on his resume, but it is not more impressive than Pac-mans.

wink you do realize pacman is 6-3 in championship fights, and the biggest win on his resume is erik morales, alos his biggest loss. are you saying floyd hasn't fought guys tougher then erik morales and barerra.

how can you compare pacman to floyd it's insane. a guy with 9 championship fighs and 5 title defenses to a guy with 16 championship fights and 12 title defenses.

Only thing is mayweather is undefeated, but Pacman has beaten JMM, Morales,Barrera, then stopped DlH. This is very very impressive especially when you factor in he won 3 titles in one year. last person to do this was Armstrong.

wink pacman did not win three titles in one year. man you should know this. he beat marquez , and david diaz, the hoya fights wasn't for any title. when floyd moved to 135 he fought the strongest champion in castillo pac gets a pass fighting the weakest in david diaz I wonder why.

Beating Baldomir and Judah who has been beaten by every good fighter he stepped in with is not that impressive quality wise, only because it was at 147 does it get any points. Having a SD win vs shot dlh is a good win on the resume, but do you think SRL, Jones, Pacman (who stopped dlh) all would have had such a bad showing vs DLH. I dont think so.

dh is shot at 147 weak and dehydrated, he is shot at 150 beating steve forbes in evey round, at 154 dlh was not shot anyone could see he was fresh and throwing punches.

let pac beat the best at 135 and 140 then you can start making comparisons to floyd.

Even though mayweather has won 5 titles and retired undefeated, 140-147,154 are divisions that he simply picked and chose who he should fight. I can accept 140 being removed from this issue, but 147 Judah, Baldomir, hatton are all 3 below the Mosley's(who he did challenge), Clottery,berto, Margo, Wiliams, Cotto. Hell baldomir got so many beatings his win vs Judah is the only reason he is mentioned. Judah again lost to everyone with a pulse.

wow you are showing a real lack of boxing knowledge. if floyd picked and chosed who he was to fight why did he win 5 wbc titles. if he was ducking and dodging the best how did he come to win the same title 5 times. at 140 wasn't gatti ranked #1 by ring, and was next in line to fight the tszyu hatton winner. at 147 wasn't judah one win removed from being the undisputed champion. you do know what undisputed means.

wasn't baldomir the undisputed champ politics aside he was the lineal rightful champ. why would floyd need to face

1. wbo -margarito
2. IBF--kermit cntron
3. WBA-ricky hatton

at the time floyd was at 147 he made the right choice and fought the most recognized and the rightful champ at 147 who was carlos baldomir.

I don't consider that picking, I consider that choosing the best to fight. and you convienently **** on judah for no apparent reason eventhough he is a small welterweight and is a 2 division champion. does margo have more championship fights then judah what about, cintron, or hatton. and you say judah lost to everyone with a pulse are you saying judah losing to tszyu, spinks, baldomr, floyd, cotto, and clottey all former world champions makes him a bum all of a sudden.

is it because floyd beat him? does that make him a bum in your eyes..damn wink

However becasue of Ray and his dominance at lightweight, and because Mayweather will not (as of yet) fight the best at 147 then I can not rate him above fighters who do risk it

.

what did duran risk by fighting leonard. there was no risk fighters fight to win duran getting credit for quitting against ray leoanrd and getting domianted 1-5 is not being objective.

you still haven't told me why you expect a former jr.lightweight with two bad hands and past his prime to clean out his fourth weight class. did:

1.leoanrd
2. hearns
3. duran

clean out their 2nd weight class, what about leoanrd after he beat hagler did he clean out his third weight class leoanrd was 32 at the time so he still had some peak years left as you say. what about our boy hands of stone did he clean out 147, 154, or 160 what about 168 and 175.

a see a very clear doube standard. if flloyd is as you say ranked beneath duran why would he need to do what no fighter has ever done just to get ranked ahead of him. no wink that is not being objective and it does show your bias against floyd.

Risk it. Risk it, Risk it. Duran did and yes he went to sleep. Leonard did, and he came up smelling like roses.

are you saying in the course of 39 fights floyd never took a risk

Playing it somewhat safe (boxing is never safe) just simply does not elevate you as much as beating a hagler at 160 when you have been retired for 5 yrs with only 1 fight.

fighting oscar at 154 under oscar's rule is playing it safe, fighting a buy who outweighs you by 15 pounds is playing it safe. wink you are too biased against floyd to see his career clearly.

you wouldn't ask ray leoanrd to fight on injured would you.

Mayweather does not have either one of these quallities to boast. So what mayweather fans have to do is build up the quality of numerous champions he beat, and point out that he beat a lot of very good champions, which he did, he also moved up and went undefeated in 5 different division winning titles. That is where the quallity of that last part, comes up short..

once against your bais against flooyd shines through, you talk about duran's domiance at 135, are you saying floyd didn't domiante 130 and 135 during his reign. and unlike duran he did it while remaining undefeated. and as far beating sugar ray goes floyd never quit in the ring eventhough he had multiple injurues and brittle hands. so saying floyd didn't beat ray leoanrd and didn't fight 70 fights at 130 is ass backwards bro. floyd didn't need to fluff up his record like duran did, floyd beat the top guys at each weight class most of the time in dominanting fashion, duran can't say the same for sure.

What if you have Dlh beat just as good fighters if not better as he moved up, but he also lost when he faced better fighter. Genero hernandez (dlh fought him when he was prime and undefeated 43-0) Mayweather caught him after this, Rafael Ruelas. DLH won a world title in his 12 title at lightweight and moved up to win at 154 too. Difference is DLH risked it and fought the best, even at 147 and 154, and 160. Mayweather has not.

I think you are little confused. boxing is a business, duran didn't take a risk fighting ray leonard because he got paid very well for fighting him, and who was duran going to make more money form at the time. same goes for hoya there was no risk in him fighting those guys because he got paid the bulk of the money. who was dlh going to get more money fighting oba carr or pernell whitaker.

and now genaro hernandez is shot at 31 get out of here with that. you are definitely a floyd hater.

oscar was big guy moving up in weight and normally had the size advantage over his opponents from 130-140. it's only when he started fighting quality guys hsi own size he started losing. so you have a backwards view when it comes to risk, but floyd didn't risk anything in 39 fights a 21 year old with 17 fights facing the greatest jr.lightweight champ in the past ten years. facing the p4p beast diego corrales for a battle of supremacy at 130.

going up in weigh to face baldomir who outweighed him by 15lbs, when has de la hoya ever been outweighed in the ring. you talk about hoya taking ricks the ***** had to have bhop wirh in below 160 in order to fight him. he had to have all these stipulations to face floyd, man wink you got it twisted, I know boxing and you're not talking to some idiot. fighters get paid to take risks...remember that.

When Mayweather risk's it like Leonard, duran, Mosley, dlh have and beats a fighter that he is not supposed to beat, or that fighters his level of talent have generallly beaten, or that most feel pose a serious threat and is peak, then we have somehting to elevate him on. Remember Mosley was at the same level he was as far as being the pound per pound best in boxing, but he risked it, DlH risked it, etc.....

floyd has already taken risks in the ring you are jsut to biased to see it.

1. faced genaro hernandez in 17th fight genaro was 38-1 and undefated at 130

2. faced diego corrales at 130 corrales was 33-0 with 30kos ranked in the top 5 p4p at the time

3. faced the #1 lightweight champ in jose luis castillo in his first fight at the weight, went into the fight with a torn rotator. castilo had over 40 kos at th time they fought

4. faced castillo in an immediate rematch to put to rest any doubt who was the best at 135.

5. faced oscar de la hoya at 154 in his first fight at the weight. oscar stipulated floyd had to weigh 150, had to wear reyes gloves (the coward hoped floyd would break his hands), and stipulated the ring size.

and you keep saying he hasn't taken risks. floyd retired having accomplsihed in 12 years what it took duran 20 to acomplsih. tht is why floyd is top 10 atg if you can find 10 fighters that have accomplished or surpasssed what he did in the ring then you win the argument, but you and I both know you cant.

[Fox McCloud]

Even though I think this thread is just out of control absurd...

I do have to commend you all for how much you are typing about this. It's obvious that you all have passion for the sport.

Nice to see.