Tszyu vs De La Hoya & others, how come it didn't happen?

[BennyST]

It's pure speculation to say that Tszyu lost the Phillips fight and the Hatton fight because of ego.

Lastly, I didn't see a decline per se in Tszyu's career once he began as pro. When he turned pro, his slick head and foot movement, and blistering hand speed stayed the same, IMO.

Nahh. Tszyu lost those fights through pure ego. I've talked to Lewis and he has told me that Tszyu was not training for the Phillips at all like he had been and like he would in the future. He did no hard stamina work because he truly thought he could blow anyone out within 6 rounds at that stage. That is simple fact. The same thing happened for the Hatton fight. Tszyu still thought, and he also said this, that he thought he was still strong enough to out-hustle and out-wrestle Hatton. He went in with the plan to out-brawl the younger, hungrier, stronger and better conditioned brawler.

Afterward, he said it very simply in Australia, and that was that he went in thinking he was still twenty-five and not thirty-five and injury laden. His plan should have been to stay on the outside and catch Hatton coming in. He quite truly would have had a reasonably easy night of it. He di it with great success throughout the mid rounds but even by that stage he was tiring very quickly from brawling too much. He recognises all that about both those fights and understands that it was his ego that got to him. Both Lewis and Tszyu know that.

Tszyu definitely declined over the course of his pro career comparative to what he was and what he could have been. He was still a very skillful boxer and used that throughout his career. He did end up relying too much on his power though and didn't train his actual boxing anymore. He did too much power and strength training and forgot his boxing, speed, defense etc. I think one of the things that made him excel at beating boxers was his background and the skill that he still had. He never got as good as he could have been though. Not to say that's a bad thing or that he didn't achieve much. He's a guaranteed HOF'er, unarguably one of the greatest ever at 140, unified the belts for the first time in over 30 years and stayed the true champion for over a decade! That's about as good as it ever gets.

I personally think he could have been even better if he had kept up his boxing boxing and not his power boxing. You could see the decline quite quickly after the Rodriguez fight. That was brutal and it's what made him fall in love with power too much. He still used his defense brilliantly in that fight and speed, head movement, angles etc, but even by that stage he had stopped fighting the way that made him so brilliant in the am's and what made him stand out from everyone else.

[BennyST]

two quick things.

1) Mayweather is humble in the ring, he gives enough respect to every of his opponent that he never pushes it in the first round. He trains like a maniac. As much of an annoying individual he is (or chooses to look like), as much of a businessman he is outside the ring, when it comes to the actual training/fighting, he is as old school as it gets (and I have been sadly forecast this for a while: he might be the last of that breed, at least as US fighters are concerned). Not sure any of this relates to smarts.

1b) I think Benny meant that Zoo chose to fight fire with fire against Phillips and got caught in a game that was not his game at all, had he been "humbler" he would might have changed the tempo of the fight and possibly the outcome

2) I think Zoo's movement started to be notably lacking in the Tackie and Leija fight. The Judah fight was too short to see that, but after that I think something was missing.

Yeah, Mayweather may be the end of a type of fighter or he may be the start of a new generation of smart fighters. Those that have seen his success will try to emulate. Most won't succeed, but a few will. There will always be those that fight instinctively like that also. The Whitaker's and Toney's.

That was exactly Tszyu's problem against Phillips. He fought very, very foolishly. For someone that he could have so easily out-boxed, he instead came in thinking that he didn't need any of that anymore. He thought he could take anyone out and do it quickly. The Lopez fight should have woken him up more and given him the first hint as to what was to come with that style of fighting for him. He won the Lopez fight with his boxing but by the Phillips stage he had only been training strength and power and lacked the stamina, speed and movement that he still had in the Lopez fight. Really unfortunate. His training at that stage was really bad in fact. Not only was he not doing much of it, but he was doing all the wrong things.

Man, his movement was gone way before then. Years before. I think it started to decline after he fought Rodriguez. He blew out a good champion with no problem without having to box much at all. After that is when his movement really started to fall off. Even by then he had stopped boxing and was just going all out for the KO though. He still naturally used a lot of head movement and more angles. He also still had some of his speed left at that stage. Actually, he was still very fast but sadly his speed training stopped as well.

I really do believe that his move to Australia ruined one of the greatest boxers that could possibly have ever been. The training he did here with Lewis was vastly different to the training he did in Russia. He's talked about it quite a bit. The training was easier over here for one but he did a lot more gym work and cross-training. Lots of strength, power, weights etc, and much less speed-work, defense, fundamentals/skill-training, stamina etc etc. Also a lot less sparring.

[BennyST]

On Zoo's left... I never said it was Malignaggi's type of non-decisive, but not enough to change a fight.

His left was a vastly underused weapon of his. He had one of the best left hands in the game when he chose to use it well and consistently. Again, it is about him doing too much of one thing, which was the straight right because it knocked most people out. He had such a good left hook and especially his hook off the jab....stunning! One of the best I've ever seen. His body punching, when he chose to do it with consistency was also very brutal. Just check out the Hurtado fight. His earlier fights have a fair bit of body work.

Enough of Tszyu though, thinking what he could have been had he stayed in Russia depresses me as do his ****** losses to Phillips and Hatton. Two guys that had no business beating him.

[The Jackal]

His left was a vastly underused weapon of his. He had one of the best left hands in the game when he chose to use it well and consistently. Again, it is about him doing too much of one thing, which was the straight right because it knocked most people out. He had such a good left hook and especially his hook off the jab....stunning! One of the best I've ever seen. His body punching, when he chose to do it with consistency was also very brutal. Just check out the Hurtado fight. His earlier fights have a fair bit of body work.

Enough of Tszyu though, thinking what he could have been had he stayed in Russia depresses me as do his ****** losses to Phillips and Hatton. Two guys that had no business beating him.

He prob neglected his left when he turn pro choosing to use it to disguise his big right hand shots but he was ****y & under trained for Philips & as for Hatton he would have beaten him prime for prime his definitely 1 of 140 ATG'S i agree he shouldn't have lost the 2 fights with Philips & Hatton but he concentrated more on power than slickness he had as an amateur relying on power more than the skills he had in his arsenal.

[IMDAZED]

If by excellent boxer you mean someone who uses his jab, moves his head and has above average footwork... I guess you are right, but Zoo did a lot more than that.

I mean... an excellent boxer would find something to do about a good jab. Maybe still lose those fights, but not as bad. Tito has disheartening to watch in that situation.

When was Tito disheartening to watch in that situation? When he fought Hopkins? Winky? Those are excellent boxers.

[ELHURACAN58]

This just in!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calzaghe has challenged Tzsyu.

"Kotzya is afraid of me. I would knock him out"

[Benny Leonard]

Man, that is one thing I regret about Tszyu above all other fighters. He truly would have been one of the greats if he had stayed in Russia or even moved to America instead. It's a real pity. As Mosley said, he was one of the most skillful pure boxers I've ever seen in the amateurs. If he had just kept that style he would have been damn near unbeatable by anyone today. A real pity.

Anyone that thinks Tszyu couldn't box, just needs to go and watch his amateur fights. Quite truly one of the greatest pure boxers I've seen. Stunning skill and speed. I'm still stunned at how quickly he transitioned from pure boxer to power puncher. Man, he was so ****ing slick back then.

God damn Australian trainers. They blow.

It's good to see another mind that thinks alike on this specific topic.... :

There's no question Australia helped give Tszyu a great life; a great life for him and his family...but I still feel it slowly took away from his boxing brilliance.

I've always said, and I mix it up a bit... Australia managed to make a Pitbull turn into a Poodle

Russia kept him hungry; kept him trained to the highest level.
If it were swimming or any other beach activity, sure, I would say it was a great move....but boxing...he had better options.

The Kostya Tszyu right off the boat was crazy good.

Oh, and anybody that thinks Tszyu didn't have speed and agility in his youth; check this fight out


I still feel, as far as boxing is concerned, America is where he should have come since he needed to leave Russia at that time so where else is better for boxing than America?

America has a huge Russian community so he would have fit right in.

Even if America isn't near what it once was with boxing, it is still the best place to be. In the future, maybe it will not but at that time it was.
It's a shame an American promoter or even trainer didn't offer Tszyu and invitation like Australia did...or maybe they did; I don't know...but Australia got him.

[Benny Leonard]

Interesting read....seemingly objective, too. But, I can objectively disagree about a couple of things....food for thought: First, I'm not sure I've ever seen Floyd's chin really tested except in the Corley fight. That was a one shot deal that hurt Floyd, but he recovered. There is nothing Corley could ever do with one punch that Tszyu could not. We all will admit that. So, from my perspective at least, I'd bet that Floyd could be knocked out with one flush shot from Tszyu...especially if he didn't see it coming. Tszyu's track record is littered with one punch KOs. And, there's nothing in Floyd's history to suggest he has a granite chin....in fact there is no evidence one way or the other. The problem with Floyd is that he has always been very difficult to hit flush. I'll admit that. But, his beard is uncertain. Tszyu's power is most certain. It's a safer assumption to rely on the known facts than to rely on speculation.

Lastly, as to the "smarts" issue. We are talking about ring smarts. Was Tszyu apt to come into a fight ****y? Sure. But, certainly no more so than Floyd Mayweather, Jr. ROFL! Now he's ****y to the point of turning away fans. It's pure speculation to say that Tszyu lost the Phillips fight and the Hatton fight because of ego. But, in any event, I don't think that's what was being referred to as "smarts" which I define as being able to devise a winning gameplan and then adjusting it as the fight becomes fluid. If Tszyu was too ****y not to even prepare, then maybe you might have a point. But, I never got that impression so I never saw that as being an excuse for either of Tszyu losses. In the case of Phillips, Tszyu just got caught having a bad day, which made it worse. In the case of Hatton, Tszyu seemed to be off his wheaties. He looked tired, or like there was something physically wrong. It wasn't the same old Tszyu.

Lastly, I didn't see a decline per se in Tszyu's career once he began as pro. When he turned pro, his slick head and foot movement, and blistering hand speed stayed the same, IMO. But, he also became a power punching KO artist. In this respect I'd say that Tszyu's STYLE actually progressed during the course of his professional career. I didn't really see a decline until his last fight with Hatton. At that point, it became clear to me that he was physically past his prime, or was just tired of the boxing game.

Floyd did take Chico's shots...and he took Oscar's shots. There was one especially Oscar landed when Floyd was up against the ropes that was loud as thunder...and Floyd took it and got out.

Ring Smarts is Generalship...and Great Generals must know how to put aside their ego...but like most great people, Ego starts to over-power their humility...Napoleon is a good example. Or Ali when he fought Leon Spinks the first time. Lewis vs. Rahman (I).

Floyd acts "****y" but he knows how to control it and to never allow it to get in the way of the task ahead. He is an insecure person...shady even. These types check every little detail before going out...check them...and recheck them. Look at Floyd Sr; the guy is a hands on trainer because he doesn't trust anyone with his fighter.

Floyd's ****iness comes from being prepared 100% and knowing he is prepared.

I saw a decline in Kostya's ability. And if you think it wasn't until Hatton, you should re-check a lot of those fights...starting with Leija and working your way back. There's a reason people were saying he was on the decline...especially with Judah's comments prior to the fight...they all knew it because they followed Kostya's career. But Power seems to make a lot of people forget. It clouds what is really going on.

If you have a "bad" day, you have to ask why...and search for the reasons.


Where was the head-movement/defense against Phillips?
Where was the caution of Phillips power?

The funny thing is Mosley mentions how Tszyu fights like an American....or in other words; he didn't fight like your typical Russian fighter...but as Tszyu's pro career went on, he became exactly that.

[Benny Leonard]

two quick things.

1) Mayweather is humble in the ring, he gives enough respect to every of his opponent that he never pushes it in the first round. He trains like a maniac. As much of an annoying individual he is (or chooses to look like), as much of a businessman he is outside the ring, when it comes to the actual training/fighting, he is as old school as it gets (and I have been sadly forecast this for a while: he might be the last of that breed, at least as US fighters are concerned). Not sure any of this relates to smarts.

1b) I think Benny meant that Zoo chose to fight fire with fire against Phillips and got caught in a game that was not his game at all, had he been "humbler" he would might have changed the tempo of the fight and possibly the outcome

2) I think Zoo's movement started to be notably lacking in the Tackie and Leija fight. The Judah fight was too short to see that, but after that I think something was missing.

Thank you for understanding...

[IMDAZED]

I doubt that age had much to do with Tszyu's lack of movement. He just wasn't as cerebral as Mayweather. And didn't know how to pick his moments. He outboxed Ben Tackie handily late in his career but foolishly chose to fight a Hatton and Phillips.