Tszyu vs De La Hoya & others, how come it didn't happen?

[Benny Leonard]

This is Kostya Tszyu in 1993

This is the last round of the fight. I thought it better to show what he was like at the end because that shows much more than just watching how great you are in the first.

Look at how he is putting punches together; using his legs; using his left; keeping a nice flow of water throughout his body.

Bramble was so confused in this fight because of what Tszyu was able to do both Mentally and Physically.



Listen to what the commentators are saying in this fight.

[Benny Leonard]

I doubt that age had much to do with Tszyu's lack of movement. He just wasn't as cerebral as Mayweather. And didn't know how to pick his moments. He outboxed Ben Tackie handily late in his career but foolishly chose to fight a Hatton and Phillips.

Lack of proper training can...inactivity.

Look at what happened to Tyson when he left Rooney...Russia was Rooney for Tszyu {kidding}


That's why I brought up the Judah comments about when questioned about Tszyu saying he was looking over his old fights and how he was going to bring back some of his old style...and Judah said Tszyu couldn't because he hasn't fought like that in a long time.

The interview/article was during the build-up to the fight.

Of course, Tszyu still had his power; they say that's the last thing to go and it's not something you have to really work on like technique.

[IMDAZED]

Lack of proper training can...inactivity.

Look at what happened to Tyson when he left Rooney...Russia was Rooney for Tszyu {kidding}


That's why I brought up the Judah comments about when questioned about Tszyu saying he was looking over his old fights and how he was going to bring back some of his old style...and Judah said Tszyu couldn't because he hasn't fought like that in a long time.

The interview/article was during the build-up to the fight.

Of course, Tszyu still had his power; they say that's the last thing to go and it's not something you have to really work on like technique.

Nah. Look at the way he fought Tackie...that was very late in his career. So he could still do it.

[Benny Leonard]

Nah. Look at the way he fought Tackie...that was very late in his career. So he could still do it.

Yeah, true...but I still say Kostya was slowing down and stiffening up; he wasn't as fast or as agile....but that happens with age.

[wmute]

When was Tito disheartening to watch in that situation? When he fought Hopkins? Winky? Those are excellent boxers.

Even against Oscar...
but the bold is exactly my point. Those are excellent boxers, not Tito!

[Wiley Hyena]

Floyd did take Chico's shots...and he took Oscar's shots. There was one especially Oscar landed when Floyd was up against the ropes that was loud as thunder...and Floyd took it and got out.

Ring Smarts is Generalship...and Great Generals must know how to put aside their ego...but like most great people, Ego starts to over-power their humility...Napoleon is a good example. Or Ali when he fought Leon Spinks the first time. Lewis vs. Rahman (I).

Floyd acts "****y" but he knows how to control it and to never allow it to get in the way of the task ahead. He is an insecure person...shady even. These types check every little detail before going out...check them...and recheck them. Look at Floyd Sr; the guy is a hands on trainer because he doesn't trust anyone with his fighter.

Floyd's ****iness comes from being prepared 100% and knowing he is prepared.

I saw a decline in Kostya's ability. And if you think it wasn't until Hatton, you should re-check a lot of those fights...starting with Leija and working your way back. There's a reason people were saying he was on the decline...especially with Judah's comments prior to the fight...they all knew it because they followed Kostya's career. But Power seems to make a lot of people forget. It clouds what is really going on.

If you have a "bad" day, you have to ask why...and search for the reasons.


Where was the head-movement/defense against Phillips?
Where was the caution of Phillips power?

The funny thing is Mosley mentions how Tszyu fights like an American....or in other words; he didn't fight like your typical Russian fighter...but as Tszyu's pro career went on, he became exactly that.

I can respect this. I just disagree that Tszyu began losing it immediately after he turned pro. As he got older he began to rely on his power more and more. That's not unusual. But, throughout the course of his pro career all he did was dominate his division...completely. So he obviously also did something RIGHT. If you're saying that the real shame of it is that he lost to two fighters that he obviously could have and should have beaten, of course I agree. Tszyu could have been an undefeated unified titlist, in which case this debate would not even be going on. He would by all accounts been one of the greatest ever to slip on gloves. All I'm saying is that every great champion throughout history has lost fights. IMO Tszyu is an ATG, and may have been the best 140 pounder I've ever seen...bar none.

[Benny Leonard]

I can respect this. I just disagree that Tszyu began losing it immediately after he turned pro. As he got older he began to rely on his power more and more. That's not unusual. But, throughout the course of his pro career all he did was dominate his division...completely. So he obviously also did something RIGHT. If you're saying that the real shame of it is that he lost to two fighters that he obviously could have and should have beaten, of course I agree. Tszyu could have been an undefeated unified titlist, in which case this debate would not even be going on. He would by all accounts been one of the greatest ever to slip on gloves. All I'm saying is that every great champion throughout history has lost fights. IMO Tszyu is an ATG, and may have been the best 140 pounder I've ever seen...bar none.

True. Tszyu fell into the trap of being Human. It's happen to the best of them. I was over-exaggerating a bit for drama by the way. As the years went on you saw the slip. This tends to happen to fighters that win Championships and start to age...and lifestyle changes.

Phillips shocked Tszyu because he slipped...either Mentally or Physically; or both since they are connected. He rededicated himself after that but what he showed in his youth was incredible.

[Wiley Hyena]

Originally posted by wmute:

"On Zoo's left... I never said it was Malignaggi's type of non-decisive, but not enough to change a fight.

RESPONSE: It was enough to change a fight. No doubt about it.


On the comment on Zoo being less smart than Mayweather, I am not knocking on him for losing to Philips, I am knocking on him for lack of alternative approaches. He didnt really had anything to try, or he didnt want to.
The comparison with Castillo-Mayweather is a bit weird, because one is a close fight in which Mayweather was injured, while Zoo-Philips is a stoppage loss. Clearly Mayweather did try something to win the fight on 2 judges scorecards...


RESPONSE: Fair enough. I mentioned the first Castillo fight in order to exemplify the pettiness of this kind of criticism. But, please don't mention the judge's scorecards when talking about Floyd v. Castillo I. We all know who really won that fight.



I definitely think Zoo isnt landing that punch, Mayweather has shown that he can avoid a punch *all* night (Hatton and Oscar's left hooks), and as accurate as Zoo is, that's the wrong punch to land on Floyd. Third time I write it, but Zoo has the wrong weapons, just like Arguello. You can be smart, skilled, you can be an all time great, but if the only *physical* advantage you have over a fighter of Mayweather's caliber is power in the punch you are least likely to land... then you are not in a good position to beat him.


RESPONSE: Maybe so, but not with regard to Tszyu. I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say "physical advantage". If "timing" and "accuracy" are considered to be a "physical" trait, then Tszyu is hard to beat. Tszyu was never the "least likely to land" in his whole career. Tszyu would land both the left jab and the right counter against Mayweather. Tszyu's jab could be very destabilizing. His left hook could be devastating, and this would also come into play. He furthermore had an amazingly quick uppercut, although Floyd is so adept at not exposing himself to the uppercut that I don't place the uppercut into the equation (unless Floyd got hurt...IN that event, it's over anyway). Like I said, Tszyu was incredibly accurate. Accuracy is the key to defeating the shell, IMO. The issue is not whether Floyd gets hit....against the one of a kind likes of Tszyu, he most surely will. The issue is whether or not Floyd could withstand the punishment that was sure to come. Tszyu was perfectly equipped to solve the Mayweather riddle. Here's a clip of a Tszyu round against a real Mexican legend, Miguel Angel Gonzales. I'm not comparing Gonzales' style to Floyd's, mind you. It's posted just so we can see some of the "physical" traits that you were commenting on:

[Wiley Hyena]

His left was a vastly underused weapon of his. He had one of the best left hands in the game when he chose to use it well and consistently. Again, it is about him doing too much of one thing, which was the straight right because it knocked most people out. He had such a good left hook and especially his hook off the jab....stunning! One of the best I've ever seen. His body punching, when he chose to do it with consistency was also very brutal. Just check out the Hurtado fight. His earlier fights have a fair bit of body work.

Enough of Tszyu though, thinking what he could have been had he stayed in Russia depresses me as do his ****** losses to Phillips and Hatton. Two guys that had no business beating him.

Excellent post.

In regards to Tszyu's left....you didn't say this, but I will... One can envision just how easily Tszyu gets to Floyd Mayweather, Jr....ohh man.

Not saying Floyd doesn't have ANY power, but that defensive pecking away stuff that Floyd employs doesn't work with Tszyu. You fundamentally had to get Tszyu's respect to have a chance to win....or more appropriately...to not get knocked out!

[wmute]

RESPONSE: It was enough to change a fight. No doubt about it.

bah... not more or less than a Mayweather punch at 140...


RESPONSE: Fair enough. I mentioned the first Castillo fight in order to exemplify the pettiness of this kind of criticism. But, please don't mention the judge's scorecards when talking about Floyd v. Castillo I. We all know who really won that fight.

No we don't sorry.... close fight could have gone either way, scorecards were off, but NOT a robbery by any means



RESPONSE: Maybe so, but not with regard to Tszyu. I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say "physical advantage". If "timing" and "accuracy" are considered to be a "physical" trait, then Tszyu is hard to beat. Tszyu was never the "least likely to land" in his whole career. Tszyu would land both the left jab and the right counter against Mayweather. Tszyu's jab could be very destabilizing. His left hook could be devastating, and this would also come into play. He furthermore had an amazingly quick uppercut, although Floyd is so adept at not exposing himself to the uppercut that I don't place the uppercut into the equation (unless Floyd got hurt...IN that event, it's over anyway). Like I said, Tszyu was incredibly accurate. Accuracy is the key to defeating the shell, IMO. The issue is not whether Floyd gets hit....against the one of a kind likes of Tszyu, he most surely will. The issue is whether or not Floyd could withstand the punishment that was sure to come. Tszyu was perfectly equipped to solve the Mayweather riddle. Here's a clip of a Tszyu round against a real Mexican legend, Miguel Angel Gonzales. I'm not comparing Gonzales' style to Floyd's, mind you. It's posted just so we can see some of the "physical" traits that you were commenting on:

[/QUOTE]

Advantage is something you are better than the your opponent at. No one has better timing or accuracy than Mayweather. That's why he can win fights throwing so little, that's why he has that ridiculous compubox all time record, that's why people stop throwing, because they *know* the counter is coming and landing.
Mayweather is not Jones or Leonard throwing 10 punch combos, he just picks his shots and is the most accurate boxer in a long time
Zoo can *at best* be even on those, that's why I say that the only advntage he has is that right hand. That's why I say Mayweather is all wrong for Zoo.

Great showing by Zoo there, not that Gonzalez should be qualified as "legend", but still helluva showing!