Tszyu vs De La Hoya & others, how come it didn't happen?

[Southpaw16BF]

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b) If you think MAyweather would fight Zoo like N'Dou (opening up) you'd be insulting one of the best boxing minds to ever enter a ring.

RESPONSE: A better boxing mind than Tszyu? You place too much credence on Floyd's intelligence. Furthermore, Floyd didn't VOLUNTARILY "open up" against N'dou. In fact, he spent most of his time in the shell, which is what he does when he's under attack. What happened against N'dou is that Floyd was receiving some punishment mostly by deflection, so he would occasionally open up to fight out of necessity when he was on the ropes....to try to get N'dou off of him. But, N'dou didn't have the accuracy to land the KO shots. They deflected because he was sloppy and reckless. Tszyu's shots would have been totally different.

Yes Mayweather is smarter than Zoo. Not insulting Zoo, Mayweather is just spectacularly smart, in fact the last time I saw someone in that league in terms of boxing IQ, it was Ray Leonard.

If Zoo was so smart, he would have come up with something to deal with Philips, plan B or improvisation.

Be it their corner or own's ring smarts, Mayweather has a clear edge in IQ.

As for the N'Dou fight, you were watching another fight I think. It was more of Mayweather's usual routine, minus a few exceptions Mayweather likes to fight and potshot, when he meets someone who keeps on coming and throwing he opens up. Zoo doesnt have high output and does not keep on coming forward-----> Mayweather does not need to open up to win rounds.

POINT TWO: Zoo's left hook in this context is functional to his hope of landing a right, because that punch might be landing easier than the right but it also doesnt do much damage. ALso: how did i forget about that punch, read the inside fighting part.


RESPONSE: Tszyu had plenty of steam in his left hand. It's just that his right got famous.....for famous reasons. The key here is Tszyu's counter punching skills.

Sure, Zoo is not Malignaggi. Point is landing the occasional left hook isnt going to change the tide of the fight, while Mayweather is landing more anyways. Because he just will.

POINT THREE: You like to think Mayweather has not enough power to make Zoo stop in his tracks, like I said Zoo isnt Baldomit or Margarito, if Oscar felt it, you can be sure Zoo will feel it.

RESPONSE: The only time Tszyu was ever counted out in his career, was in the Phillips fight (and it was a waive off). Kostya Tszyu had a great chin. You're wrong to simply say Tszyu "isn't Baldomir or Margarito." Secondly, the problem fighting Tszyu is that when you hit him, he hits you. That's Floyd's problem. That's why against Tszyu, Floyd backs off. That's why Floyd goes into his shell. It's called counter punching. Floyd would land potshots, but those won't hurt Tszyu without a concentrated attack being involved. And, make no mistake, Tszyu doesn't walk into Floyd's punches like Hatton and so many others have. He's very crafty in this regard.

You don't understand the point, Mayweather had enough power to make anyone he faced think twice about throwing, and stop in their tracks pretty much everyone but Baldomir. Zoo's chin is excellent, but he feels punches like all those human beings who don't have an abnormal skull/orbital muscles.

You are simply dreaming, if you think Zoo is outlanding Mayweather while boxing.

POINT FOUR: So you seriously think Zoo is a better countrpuncher than Mayweather? DO you think he has better timing that Mayweather? I am curious...

RESPONSE: Ohhh....a set up question. You mean we're supposed to believe that Floyd has the best timed counters of all time? Because to be better than Tszyu, it will have to be some of the greatest of all time. Give me a break. Floyd is a good counter puncher...out of the shell. A passive aggressive defense you might call it. That crap don't get it done with Tszyu. It doesn't matter who was the best counter puncher or who had the best timing because it's Tszyu power that will makes the difference. Floyd in the shell.....that's the key to Tszyu's victory.

No **** Mayweather has some of the best timed counters of all time (It does not take much to see that, if your eyes are not wearing hate goggles), that is why his opponents' stop throwing, because they know the counter is coming. Look at him walking down Judah to see his timing while coming forward. After round 4 Mayweather countered *every* single punch against someone faster...

Zoo's power won't make the difference because he is not going to land a single flush right hand in the entire fight. Because Mayweather won't be at range, or he will just be beating him to the punch, because not only he has great timing, but he is faster than Zoo and it takes a minimum movement to deflect a straight right from his stance.

And finally if Zoo keeps comes forward and potshotting doesnt work for Mayweather, he just needs to stay there and fight him on the inside.

RESPONSE: Floyd doesn't do this with Tszyu, IMO. It would be suicidal. Tszyu too adept at coming in, provoking the challenge, taking a step back and countering. 1..2..3.
A tantalizingly complex manuever in which Tszyu was exceedingly masterful. No, Floyd would engage get hit and shell up and challenge Tszyu to break thru while Floyd picks at him. This is what Floyd does, with exceeding proficiency, I'll admit. The problem is that in regard to Tszyu, it's just what the doctor ordered.

Every time Zoo comes in he gets hit then they wrestle and he gets a nice elbow in his face, he hooks off the clinch and read my previous post on why he isnt landing many of those either. he gets his body worked like Hatton an Philips did. Then he takes a step back and he tries to counterpunch someone who is just as fast, and has a more varied array of punches... how many time is he going to be the one landing? And none of those will be one of those extended straight rights who could turn the fight around.

On why would someone call out oscar instead of zoo... well the an$wer is easy and it has nothing to do with fear. Unfortunately for your theorem, Floyd said he'd fight Zoo a number of times.

RESPONSE: I'll agree with the first part of your statement. The second part was all talk and no walk. Period.

Period my ass. Articles say Floyd would like to fight Zoo. Articles say Zoo would like to fight Floyd. The only difference is you are swinging off Zoo's balls AND hating on Mayweather.

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With all due respect guys, Felix Trinidad was an excellent boxer at welterweight. I think people tend to forget that. Look at the Whitaker fight as an example and all the fights prior. He did, however, fall in love with his power - which hurt him as he moved up in weight.

If by excellent boxer you mean someone who uses his jab, moves his head and has above average footwork... I guess you are right, but Zoo did a lot more than that.

I mean... an excellent boxer would find something to do about a good jab. Maybe still lose those fights, but not as bad. Tito has disheartening to watch in that situation.

[Wiley Hyena]

Yes Mayweather is smarter than Zoo. Not insulting Zoo, Mayweather is just spectacularly smart, in fact the last time I saw someone in that league in terms of boxing IQ, it was Ray Leonard.

If Zoo was so smart, he would have come up with something to deal with Philips, plan B or improvisation.

Be it their corner or own's ring smarts, Mayweather has a clear edge in IQ.

As for the N'Dou fight, you were watching another fight I think. It was more of Mayweather's usual routine, minus a few exceptions Mayweather likes to fight and potshot, when he meets someone who keeps on coming and throwing he opens up. Zoo doesnt have high output and does not keep on coming forward-----> Mayweather does not need to open up to win rounds.



Sure, Zoo is not Malignaggi. Point is landing the occasional left hook isnt going to change the tide of the fight, while Mayweather is landing more anyways. Because he just will.



You don't understand the point, Mayweather had enough power to make anyone he faced think twice about throwing, and stop in their tracks pretty much everyone but Baldomir. Zoo's chin is excellent, but he feels punches like all those human beings who don't have an abnormal skull/orbital muscles.

You are simply dreaming, if you think Zoo is outlanding Mayweather while boxing.



No **** Mayweather has some of the best timed counters of all time (It does not take much to see that, if your eyes are not wearing hate goggles), that is why his opponents' stop throwing, because they know the counter is coming. Look at him walking down Judah to see his timing while coming forward. After round 4 Mayweather countered *every* single punch against someone faster...

Zoo's power won't make the difference because he is not going to land a single flush right hand in the entire fight. Because Mayweather won't be at range, or he will just be beating him to the punch, because not only he has great timing, but he is faster than Zoo and it takes a minimum movement to deflect a straight right from his stance.



Every time Zoo comes in he gets hit then they wrestle and he gets a nice elbow in his face, he hooks off the clinch and read my previous post on why he isnt landing many of those either. he gets his body worked like Hatton an Philips did. Then he takes a step back and he tries to counterpunch someone who is just as fast, and has a more varied array of punches... how many time is he going to be the one landing? And none of those will be one of those extended straight rights who could turn the fight around.



Period my ass. Articles say Floyd would like to fight Zoo. Articles say Zoo would like to fight Floyd. The only difference is you are swinging off Zoo's balls AND hating on Mayweather.

Well we can agree to disagree about this (like either one of us ever thought we'd change the other's mind), but it's been a very interesting discussion. But, I will extend the argument a bit further in retort to your post.

First, just take a quick look at the first video I posted a few blogs up. Tszyu's left hand was quite devastating, actually. In that video, you'll see the knock down power of Tszyu's left hand. So....keep that in mind because from your posts it seems that you might, I say "might", have been unaware of this (easy to do because Tszyu's right hand dominates the stage). Bottom line...Tszyu has the power to do serious damage to Floyd with his left.

Secondly, I don't for one minute believe that Floyd is "smarter" than Tszyu. IN this regard, you saying "otherwise Tszyu would have come up with a way to deal with Phillips" is really pretty cliche and old....don't you think? I could just as easily say, "otherwise Floyd would have come up with a way to deal with Castillo in their first fight." It's petty B.S.

Third, you say Tszyu would not land one flush right hand the whole fight. THAT'S a pretty big statement. As I said before, it takes ACCURACY to defeat the shell. Tszyu had that in spades. I'm confident he would land the right. It would be set up off the left. NOW the issue becomes whether or not Floyd has the beard to withstand Tszyu's power. You will probably say he does. I will say he does NOT. In the end, this issue determines the fight, IMO.

[Wiley Hyena]

First, Floyd couldn't come up with a miracle to cure his torn-shoulder...he's not "God." We saw what a healthy Floyd could do to Castillo; rematch fight.

I do think Floyd had the "beard" to take Tszyu's one shot...the question would be if he could see all his shots coming...if he couldn't, that would be trouble.

Tszyu's short-left hook is very fast and powerful...it's very "Russian" the way he throws it. It serves more as a "stunner" than a KO punch. Nobody was sure how well his left was going to be when he came back against Mitchell (II), but we all saw what happened: when Tszyu landed it, it shook Mitchell.
I also think it shook Ricky several times...which if you notice, Ricky would clinch as soon as he was hit with it. So I do agree it was a nice weapon.


I'll say one reason why Floyd was smarter than Tszyu in a way, even though I think Tszyu was brilliant in his day: Floyd never let his Ego get in the way and I think Tszyu did; which is why he lost to Phillips; why he declined as a great fighter that stunned the World in the amateurs; and why he failed against Hatton.

Tszyu, to me, welcomed his ego to be inflated...while Floyd acted like the ****, but always seemed to work off of his fears and insecurity to train hard, after all; who else trains at all hours?
Tszyu's like that King who accepts apple-pies from everybody, while Floyd would be su****ious of it and think it had poison.

Interesting read....seemingly objective, too. But, I can objectively disagree about a couple of things....food for thought: First, I'm not sure I've ever seen Floyd's chin really tested except in the Corley fight. That was a one shot deal that hurt Floyd, but he recovered. There is nothing Corley could ever do with one punch that Tszyu could not. We all will admit that. So, from my perspective at least, I'd bet that Floyd could be knocked out with one flush shot from Tszyu...especially if he didn't see it coming. Tszyu's track record is littered with one punch KOs. And, there's nothing in Floyd's history to suggest he has a granite chin....in fact there is no evidence one way or the other. The problem with Floyd is that he has always been very difficult to hit flush. I'll admit that. But, his beard is uncertain. Tszyu's power is most certain. It's a safer assumption to rely on the known facts than to rely on speculation.

Lastly, as to the "smarts" issue. We are talking about ring smarts. Was Tszyu apt to come into a fight ****y? Sure. But, certainly no more so than Floyd Mayweather, Jr. ROFL! Now he's ****y to the point of turning away fans. It's pure speculation to say that Tszyu lost the Phillips fight and the Hatton fight because of ego. But, in any event, I don't think that's what was being referred to as "smarts" which I define as being able to devise a winning gameplan and then adjusting it as the fight becomes fluid. If Tszyu was too ****y not to even prepare, then maybe you might have a point. But, I never got that impression so I never saw that as being an excuse for either of Tszyu losses. In the case of Phillips, Tszyu just got caught having a bad day, which made it worse. In the case of Hatton, Tszyu seemed to be off his wheaties. He looked tired, or like there was something physically wrong. It wasn't the same old Tszyu.

Lastly, I didn't see a decline per se in Tszyu's career once he began as pro. When he turned pro, his slick head and foot movement, and blistering hand speed stayed the same, IMO. But, he also became a power punching KO artist. In this respect I'd say that Tszyu's STYLE actually progressed during the course of his professional career. I didn't really see a decline until his last fight with Hatton. At that point, it became clear to me that he was physically past his prime, or was just tired of the boxing game.

[Da Hammer]

Why would Oscar duck Kostya when he fought bigger stronger faster Tito who is the harder hitter

Obviously he didnt anybody who even implies that he did is a complete moron!

[Wiley Hyena]

Obviously he didnt anybody who even implies that he did is a complete moron!

Tito aint no Tszyu...............

[Brandish]

Tito aint no Tszyu

you mean tito is better then vince philips and ricky hatton

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Well we can agree to disagree about this (like either one of us ever thought we'd change the other's mind), but it's been a very interesting discussion. But, I will extend the argument a bit further in retort to your post.

First, just take a quick look at the first video I posted a few blogs up. Tszyu's left hand was quite devastating, actually. In that video, you'll see the knock down power of Tszyu's left hand. So....keep that in mind because from your posts it seems that you might, I say "might", have been unaware of this (easy to do because Tszyu's right hand dominates the stage). Bottom line...Tszyu has the power to do serious damage to Floyd with his left.

Secondly, I don't for one minute believe that Floyd is "smarter" than Tszyu. IN this regard, you saying "otherwise Tszyu would have come up with a way to deal with Phillips" is really pretty cliche and old....don't you think? I could just as easily say, "otherwise Floyd would have come up with a way to deal with Castillo in their first fight." It's petty B.S.

Third, you say Tszyu would not land one flush right hand the whole fight. THAT'S a pretty big statement. As I said before, it takes ACCURACY to defeat the shell. Tszyu had that in spades. I'm confident he would land the right. It would be set up off the left. NOW the issue becomes whether or not Floyd has the beard to withstand Tszyu's power. You will probably say he does. I will say he does NOT. In the end, this issue determines the fight, IMO.

On Zoo's left... I never said it was Malignaggi's type of non-decisive, but not enough to change a fight.

On the comment on Zoo being less smart than Mayweather, I am not knocking on him for losing to Philips, I am knocking on him for lack of alternative approaches. He didnt really had anything to try, or he didnt want to.
The comparison with Castillo-Mayweather is a bit weird, because one is a close fight in which Mayweather was injured, while Zoo-Philips is a stoppage loss. Clearly Mayweather did try something to win the fight on 2 judges scorecards...

I definitely think Zoo isnt landing that punch, Mayweather has shown that he can avoid a punch *all* night (Hatton and Oscar's left hooks), and as accurate as Zoo is, that's the wrong punch to land on Floyd. Third time I write it, but Zoo has the wrong weapons, just like Arguello. You can be smart, skilled, you can be an all time great, but if the only *physical* advantage you have over a fighter of Mayweather's caliber is power in the punch you are least likely to land... then you are not in a good position to beat him.

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Interesting read....seemingly objective, too. But, I can objectively disagree about a couple of things....food for thought: First, I'm not sure I've ever seen Floyd's chin really tested except in the Corley fight. That was a one shot deal that hurt Floyd, but he recovered. There is nothing Corley could ever do with one punch that Tszyu could not. We all will admit that. So, from my perspective at least, I'd bet that Floyd could be knocked out with one flush shot from Tszyu...especially if he didn't see it coming. Tszyu's track record is littered with one punch KOs. And, there's nothing in Floyd's history to suggest he has a granite chin....in fact there is no evidence one way or the other. The problem with Floyd is that he has always been very difficult to hit flush. I'll admit that. But, his beard is uncertain. Tszyu's power is most certain. It's a safer assumption to rely on the known facts than to rely on speculation.

Lastly, as to the "smarts" issue. We are talking about ring smarts. Was Tszyu apt to come into a fight ****y? Sure. But, certainly no more so than Floyd Mayweather, Jr. ROFL! Now he's ****y to the point of turning away fans. It's pure speculation to say that Tszyu lost the Phillips fight and the Hatton fight because of ego. But, in any event, I don't think that's what was being referred to as "smarts" which I define as being able to devise a winning gameplan and then adjusting it as the fight becomes fluid. If Tszyu was too ****y not to even prepare, then maybe you might have a point. But, I never got that impression so I never saw that as being an excuse for either of Tszyu losses. In the case of Phillips, Tszyu just got caught having a bad day, which made it worse. In the case of Hatton, Tszyu seemed to be off his wheaties. He looked tired, or like there was something physically wrong. It wasn't the same old Tszyu.

Lastly, I didn't see a decline per se in Tszyu's career once he began as pro. When he turned pro, his slick head and foot movement, and blistering hand speed stayed the same, IMO. But, he also became a power punching KO artist. In this respect I'd say that Tszyu's STYLE actually progressed during the course of his professional career. I didn't really see a decline until his last fight with Hatton. At that point, it became clear to me that he was physically past his prime, or was just tired of the boxing game.

two quick things.

1) Mayweather is humble in the ring, he gives enough respect to every of his opponent that he never pushes it in the first round. He trains like a maniac. As much of an annoying individual he is (or chooses to look like), as much of a businessman he is outside the ring, when it comes to the actual training/fighting, he is as old school as it gets (and I have been sadly forecast this for a while: he might be the last of that breed, at least as US fighters are concerned). Not sure any of this relates to smarts.

1b) I think Benny meant that Zoo chose to fight fire with fire against Phillips and got caught in a game that was not his game at all, had he been "humbler" he would might have changed the tempo of the fight and possibly the outcome

2) I think Zoo's movement started to be notably lacking in the Tackie and Leija fight. The Judah fight was too short to see that, but after that I think something was missing.