Jermain Taylor: "I Want To Make an Impact at 168"

[Hitman932]

Hey, if Pavlik can outstrip Calzaghe and rack up a better career he will deserve to go above him, I'll have no problem with it. As for the value of the wins he already has, history will have to decide. Miranda is of comparable quality to someone like Kabary Salem, he might actually be worse, if Taylor doesn't get his ass in gear and win another title then he starts to look like a Byron Mitchell type figure, and Hopins with losses to Taylor and now Joe, aged 43 can't be ranked as being a much better win than Joe's over Eubank, if Pavlik beats him.

I dont have a damn clue who Salem is but If Taylor is no better than Byron Mitchell I will eat my shorts.

I would say Miranda is comparable quality to Jeff Lacy, I would pick Miranda to win should they fight tomorrow. So I give more credit to Pavlik for beating Pantera than I do Joe for beating Jeff Lacy, especially since Pavlik was supposed to get destroyed and Calzaghe/Lacy was a 50/50 fight.

Pavlik also knocked Miranda out and would do the same to Lacy.

As far as Eubank I think it speaks to where he was at in his career that he never won a significant fight from 1994-1998 and lost to Joe in '97.

[Hitman932]

Your analogies really need some work mate.

You cant really compare obvious trash talk to what you expect Calzaghe to say.

Out of interest, what did Pavlik say about Lockett? Or Taylor about Ouma/Spinks? Or Jones about half his opposition while he was on top.

Accuse me of changing the subject all you want, but you're acting as if its some kind of outrageous unheard of thing that fighters try to exagerrate their opponents ability to increase interest in the fight.

i stopped seriously debating you when you made the statement that is now in my sig.

I am only actually taking abadger and dstew seriously at this point.

My analogies became bad on purpose to refect my disdain for the fact that you won't acknowledge Joe clearly PWNing himself on television

[abadger]

I dont have a damn clue who Salem is but If Taylor is no better than Byron Mitchell I will eat my shorts.

I would say Miranda is comparable quality to Jeff Lacy, I would pick Miranda to win should they fight tomorrow. So I give more credit to Pavlik for beating Pantera than I do Joe for beating Jeff Lacy, especially since Pavlik was supposed to get destroyed and Calzaghe/Lacy was a 50/50 fight.

Pavlik also knocked Miranda out and would do the same to Lacy.

As far as Eubank I think it speaks to where he was at in his career that he never won a significant fight from 1994-1998 and lost to Joe in '97.

I think your assessment of Miranda and Lacy is a little off. Miranda probably is better than Lacy right now, and for all I know might always have been, but Jeff does look a hell of a lot worse these days than he used too. Either way there's not a great deal in it and I don't think its justifiable to give Pavlik more credit for Miranda than Joe for Lacy, especially considering Lacy was world champ at the time. By a similar token I would probably give Calzaghe more credit for beating Mario Veit than for either guys wins over Lacy or Miranda, since I would pick Veit to beat both.

To be honest I agree that Hopkins gets the nod over Eubank, but its not that different, the guy lost two still capable fighters he faced, if we're honest its pretty clear that Winky had no business at LHW really and that Tarver apparently forgot how to fight for the evening, and that both were getting on.

[Dirk Diggler UK]

dstew, Im a bit tired and cant be arsed dissecting your post bit by bit right now but here are my main points which I feel you didnt address.

I feel Calzaghe's change on heart was based on a few things.

1. He hadnt realised how big a draw Roy Jones still was. Jones vs Trinidad did over double the PPV buys of Pavlik vs Taylor II. I think when he saw that and realised that Jones was desperate for the fight, it would be too good an oppourtunity to miss financially.

2. He wants to make that one last mega payday while he still can. He doesnt want Jones to get KOed by someone else before he can cash in on the fight.

3. He might feel his own skills are deteriorating and wants to gauge it for one fight before perhaps continuing. He keeps saying its "probably" going to be his last fight for a reason - because he'll find out in the way he performs on the night. And if he feels he's not his best, its better to have made the bigger payday before bowing out.

I realise what Joe has said sounds contradictory but I feel its understandable and I certainly dont feel he deserves to be called a "weasel" which is just childish overall.

Joe said Jones was past his best before he signed to fight him BUT I dont remember him ever denying that after the fight was signed. I think he's actually acknowledged it. Yet he's obviously played up to the more positive aspects of the fight.

He said Jones would do nothing for his legacy before and I dont recall him ever saying it would make or break his legacy now. As ive pointed out, he seems to feel comfortable having already secured it.

[Dirk Diggler UK]

i stopped seriously debating you when you made the statement that is now in my sig.

I am only actually taking abadger and dstew seriously at this point.

My analogies became bad on purpose to refect my disdain for the fact that you won't acknowledge Joe clearly PWNing himself on television

You really think Pavlik isnt limited skill wise?

[dstew]

dstew, Im a bit tired and cant be arsed dissecting your post bit by bit right now but here are my main points which I feel you didnt address.

I feel Calzaghe's change on heart was based on a few things.

1. He hadnt realised how big a draw Roy Jones still was. Jones vs Trinidad did over double the PPV buys of Pavlik vs Taylor II. I think when he saw that and realised that Jones was desperate for the fight, it would be too good an oppourtunity to miss financially.

2. He wants to make that one last mega payday while he still can. He doesnt want Jones to get KOed by someone else before he can cash in on the fight.

3. He might feel his own skills are deteriorating and wants to gauge it for one fight before perhaps continuing. He keeps saying its "probably" going to be his last fight for a reason - because he'll find out in the way he performs on the night. And if he feels he's not his best, its better to have made the bigger payday before bowing out.

I don't doubt that the first two reasons, aka easy money, could have led Joe to change his mind about taking the fight. That doesn't equate to him changing his mind about RJJ as a fighter, which is the more pertinent angle to all this.

As for the third reason, during the press tour for this fight, Calzaghe said he was at his best for the Hopkins fight (source). That's not what someone says if they feel their skills are deteriorating. He could have been lying to sell this fight, but then we're back to another criticism of mine - if he feels like he's lost a step, he should come clean. It would be understandable at his age and nobody could hold it against him.

None of this changes the fact that when Joe thought the money wasn't on the line (i.e. he hadn't signed the fight and wasn't trying to boost its revenue) and was put on the spot on live television, he said he would be disappointed if he fought a past his prime Jones in his last performance. I feel that was his honest opinion, and probably still is his honest opinion when handfuls of cash aren't being waved in his face. Because of this I feel any attempts by him to sell/legitimize this fight (including his venomous attacks on Pavlik and dismissal of him as a worthy opponent) as anything other than an easy payday are the equivalent of him lying to the public if not himself, and doing it very badly. Childishly at times.

Joe said Jones was past his best before he signed to fight him BUT I dont remember him ever denying that after the fight was signed. I think he's actually acknowledged it. Yet he's obviously played up to the more positive aspects of the fight.

He said Jones would do nothing for his legacy before and I dont recall him ever saying it would make or break his legacy now. As ive pointed out, he seems to feel comfortable having already secured it.

Yes, he has made comments in the work up to the fight about Roy not having quite as many tools as he used to, or something to that effect, but to deny such a thing would be absolutely foolish. However he has said, "I have been a champion for 11 years and now I am fighting against legends." Roy Jones was a legend, and still is in the historical sense, but not in the sense that Joe will be fighting the legend itself. He's only fighting the 39 year old body that once held the legend.

Also note that in the link I posted, Joe said, "Pavlik, who is he? He might get his ass kicked by Hopkins." This after in the January interview he said he was impressed by Pavlik and would like him as his next opponent. Utter BS, isn't it?

Finally, not once have I heard him defend (or be asked to defend, which is the fault of the media) his comment about Jones being a disappointing career ending fight. You'd think that would be brought up by someone during a press tour for the fight, wouldn't you?

All this is why I called him a weasel, and I stand by it and will continue to do so until the day he announces, "Just kidding about the retirement, I'm fighting Pavlik next!!!"

[Dirk Diggler UK]

I don't doubt that the first two reasons, aka easy money, could have led Joe to change his mind about taking the fight. That doesn't equate to him changing his mind about RJJ as a fighter, which is the more pertinent angle to all this.

As for the third reason, during the press tour for this fight, Calzaghe said he was at his best for the Hopkins fight (source). That's not what someone says if they feel their skills are deteriorating. He could have been lying to sell this fight, but then we're back to another criticism of mine - if he feels like he's lost a step, he should come clean. It would be understandable at his age and nobody could hold it against him.

None of this changes the fact that when Joe thought the money wasn't on the line (i.e. he hadn't signed the fight and wasn't trying to boost its revenue) and was put on the spot on live television, he said he would be disappointed if he fought a past his prime Jones in his last performance. I feel that was his honest opinion, and probably still is his honest opinion when handfuls of cash aren't being waved in his face. Because of this I feel any attempts by him to sell/legitimize this fight (including his venomous attacks on Pavlik and dismissal of him as a worthy opponent) as anything other than an easy payday are the equivalent of him lying to the public if not himself, and doing it very badly. Childishly at times.


Yes, he has made comments in the work up to the fight about Roy not having quite as many tools as he used to, or something to that effect, but to deny such a thing would be absolutely foolish. However he has said, "I have been a champion for 11 years and now I am fighting against legends." Roy Jones was a legend, and still is in the historical sense, but not in the sense that Joe will be fighting the legend itself. He's only fighting the 39 year old body that once held the legend.

Also note that in the link I posted, Joe said, "Pavlik, who is he? He might get his ass kicked by Hopkins." This after in the January interview he said he was impressed by Pavlik and would like him as his next opponent. Utter BS, isn't it?

Finally, not once have I heard him defend (or be asked to defend, which is the fault of the media) his comment about Jones being a disappointing career ending fight. You'd think that would be brought up by someone during a press tour for the fight, wouldn't you?

All this is why I called him a weasel, and I stand by it and will continue to do so until the day he announces, "Just kidding about the retirement, I'm fighting Pavlik next!!!"

I think overall you're just being overly critical and pedantic about Calzaghes comments.

To go as far as to suggest he's "lying" about his condition and should tell the whole world that hes slowing down is utterly ridiculous. All fighters say they're in the best shape of their lives before the fight. You're just being unnecesarily bitter and critical to expect a fighter to come out and say that they're slowing down. Despite that, Calzaghe has admitted it in a roundabout way by saying "Im an old man too! Ive been kicking young arse for the past few years, its about time I fight some guys my own age".

Again, you're being completely niave and overly critical. Jones vs Calzaghe is on PPV and is still two of the biggest names in the sport fighting it out. Its not Taylor vs Lacy. So to expect Calzaghe to come out and say that hes taking the fight just for a payday is again.......ridiculous.

We all know Pavlik is fighting Hopkins for similar reasons and he and his team were the first ones to say Hopkins should be retired before they signed to fight him. Which would make Pavlik another "weasel" IN YOUR BOOK for trying to sell a PPV fight by exaggerating the virtues of a 43 year old Hopkins.

Roy Jones is still a legend. Calzaghe has never gone back on saying Jones is past his best. Hes merely played up the positive aspects more by referring to his recent wins. Hes never gone back on his word about the fight doing nothing for his legacy, hes merely suggested that its a fight hes wanted for years.

[dstew]

I've said what I have to say, and don't really feel like continuing the potentially endless discussion over who's-guilty-of-what. Everyone is guilty of something, and I'm not going to keep reading through every new name you bring up; first it was De La Hoya, Hopkins, Jones, now it's Pavlik.

You've still not offered any proof that Calzaghe is not what I say he is because there is none. Partially because it's my opinion, but mostly because my opinion is based on facts that you cannot change no matter how hard you try to gloss over them and make excuses. I may be overly critical but that doesn't make me wrong. You, on the other hand, seem incapable of criticism when it comes to Calzaghe but more than willing to toss every other fighter's name under the bus just to get the attention off your man.

If it helps you sleep, my judgement that Calzaghe's a weasel pertains primarily to the circumstances of this fight. He may not be a weasel about everything, and at any time could come along and change my mind given the right circumstances.

I'm done.

[Dirk Diggler UK]

I've said what I have to say, and don't really feel like continuing the potentially endless discussion over who's-guilty-of-what. Everyone is guilty of something, and I'm not going to keep reading through every new name you bring up; first it was De La Hoya, Hopkins, Jones, now it's Pavlik.

You've still not offered any proof that Calzaghe is not what I say he is because there is none. Partially because it's my opinion, but mostly because my opinion is based on facts that you cannot change no matter how hard you try to gloss over them and make excuses. I may be overly critical but that doesn't make me wrong. You, on the other hand, seem incapable of criticism when it comes to Calzaghe but more than willing to toss every other fighter's name under the bus just to get the attention off your man.

If it helps you sleep, my judgement that Calzaghe's a weasel pertains primarily to the circumstances of this fight. He may not be a weasel about everything, and at any time could come along and change my mind given the right circumstances.

I'm done.

The reason I toss other fighters names there is because this sort of thing is done ALL THE TIME. Fighters change their mind, they say one thing and do another, they fight guys they shouldnt really fight and sell fights as bigger than they actually are.

Yet you seem to think Joe Calzaghe is breaking some kind of ground here. I dont care about defending him against someone as childish enough to call him a weasel and as clearly bitter towards him as you are.

You've dragged up a list of things he said in the press and twisted them into painting him as a liar. Trivial things such as not wanting to give up his WBO belt and saying he was in great shape before the Hopkins fight. Its clear you're nothing but a smear artist.

[dstew]

Show me where I said he is breaking ground?

And no need to paint him as a liar when his statements to the press indicate as much.

As for bitterness against him, my persistence with this discussion has had as much to do with how you come across as how Joe comes across, if not moreso. You haven't once stepped back, like abadger did, and basically said he can't explain his actions but he still respects him as a fighter. Or that you question his decision to fight Jones.

No, instead you've spent this entire time trying explain his actions in order to somehow prove that I'm being ridiculous, or even more absurd - trying to change my opinion on Calzaghe's behavior, which is not going to happen. Only he can do that, because my opinions are based on the facts I've shown here, and how they match up with my own values. You cannot do ANYTHING to change that.