Is Hopkins an ATG??

[IMDAZED]

And one more thing. When Bernard Hopkins met Felix Trinidad, Tito was considered the BEST fighter in the world, a young champ in his prime sitting atop the sports mythical list. A few rags had Mosley on top but they were both considered the best - the momentum was with Trinidad.

You think he earned that from his fight against Oscar, his last at welterweight? No. It happened at 154 and reached it's crescendo against Joppy.

[Left Hook Tua]

Which is it? 160 or 168? Explain.

You'd have a point if it was anybody but Tito. Hmm...let's see:

Tito moves up to 154, fights the two best fighters there. What happens? He knocks one champ down four times and ruins him. Fights the other champ, knocks him down and out the FIFTH time and ruins him. Oh, and in between that, he made one defense of his title where he needed less than 10 minutes to turn his opponent's eye into a beach ball. Hmm...no sign of a loss of power there...or effectiveness.

Tito now moves to 160 where he meets champ William Joppy who, at the time, was no great shakes but a respected champion. In fact, there was a strong section of the media AND boxing fans who thought him a darkhorse who would beat Tito. Why? They thought like you.

Any fears about Tito losing his best weapons at middleweight are gone within a few minutes. Tito knocks Joppy down so many times I forgot the amount. Sometimes he went down a few times from one punch. In fact - contrary to what you're saying now - the belief was that the extra weight made Trinidad even MORE powerful. Coupled with the belief that he had begin struggling to make 147, it seemed very likely (see performances in his last few fights against the ones at 154 up to Joppy).

The debate killer is that Hopkins - who was out-weighed by Tito on the scales - didn't use brawn but brains to beat him. Period. He didn't lose because he was too small, he lost because he wasn't good enough.

okay i don't want to argue this anymore. i go through this argument everytime hopkins-tito comes up.

think what you want but the fact is tito was not a natural middleweight.

it doesn't take anything away from hopkins win over tito (tito is his best win) but don't make it seem like size doesn't matter. you don't have to use brawn to have a size advantage.

just because tito won a belt at 160 doesn't mean he's a middleweight. oscar won a belt at 160 too does that mean he's a middleweight?

[IMDAZED]

okay i don't want to argue this anymore. i go through this argument everytime hopkins-tito comes up.

think what you want but the fact is tito was not a natural middleweight.

it doesn't take anything away from hopkins win over tito (tito is his best win) but don't make it seem like size doesn't matter. you don't have to use brawn to have a size advantage.

just because tito won a belt at 160 doesn't mean he's a middleweight. oscar won a belt at 160 too does that mean he's a middleweight?

So...? I'm finished as well.

[Hagler★]

Hate all you want Hopkins makes the list. most middleweight title defences, 2 titles in diff weight classes. first undisputed middleweight champ since Hagler, been a fighter of the year as well as p4p best. enough criteria to satisfy those judging

[oldgringo]

okay i don't want to argue this anymore. i go through this argument everytime hopkins-tito comes up.

think what you want but the fact is tito was not a natural middleweight.

it doesn't take anything away from hopkins win over tito (tito is his best win) but don't make it seem like size doesn't matter. you don't have to use brawn to have a size advantage.

just because tito won a belt at 160 doesn't mean he's a middleweight. oscar won a belt at 160 too does that mean he's a middleweight?

Who cares if wasn't a Middleweight...he was a legitimate threat to knock off Hopkins and he was at the top of his game.

Other GREAT Middleweights whose most high profile wins (among others) came against Welterweights:

Monzon (Napoles, Griffith)
Hagler (Hearns, Duran)
LaMotta (Robinson, Zivic)

Hopkins used skill and smarts to outbox and ultimately stop Trinidad. He didn't come forward throwing power punches, walking through fire like Margarito did with Cotto.

[-Swizzy-]

Hate all you want Hopkins makes the list. most middleweight title defences, 2 titles in diff weight classes. first undisputed middleweight champ since Hagler, been a fighter of the year as well as p4p best. enough criteria to satisfy those judging

only 1 guy is hating and that's tunney.

[Left Hook Tua]

Who cares if wasn't a Middleweight...he was a legitimate threat to knock off Hopkins and he was at the top of his game.

Other GREAT Middleweights whose most high profile wins (among others) came against Welterweights:

Monzon (Napoles, Griffith)
Hagler (Hearns, Duran)
LaMotta (Robinson, Zivic)

Hopkins used skill and smarts to outbox and ultimately stop Trinidad. He didn't come forward throwing power punches, walking through fire like Margarito did with Cotto.

did i say anything about it not being a good win?

just because i said tito is not a natural middleweight doesn't mean it wasn't a good win.

i'm talking about tito's natural weight class. is he not a natural 147-154 guy?

just because i said he's not a natural middle doesn't take away from bernard's win.

[Sweet Pea 50]

This has got to be one of the most lopsided polls in the history on this board.

[Zocalo]

Without question he is an all time great.

[Steak]

I went ahead and said no. I think being an 'ATG' is very difficult and should be reserved for only the top, top fighters of all time.

and for the record, I dont think Calzaghe or Kostya are ATGs either.