Hopkins is a ****ing cheater

[Kris Silver]

The chances of Calzaghe KOing Hopkins are very small. Hopkins was way more likely to knockout Calzaghe, he punches deceptively hard. You saw him knock him down.

Gone from laughing at Joe knocking Nard out, to saying chances are very small, progress. I said and accept as do most, that Calzaghe was unlikely to KO, but sorry it was more likely than you give credit for. He outboxed Kessler all fight, saw an opportunity for a hard shot and took it. Kessler admitted he was hurt, and it was the only punch that really hurt him. He was also given a second to recover and get by. But was hurt and ppl though a TKO was possible at least.

That's what Calzaghes like, he'll do the low-medium strength punches all day to out box you, why risk throwing longer more lethal punches that he could get punished for, risk hurting his hands and going one handed again? If he see's a rare good opportunity like he did with Kessler and others, he'll throw the odd hard shot. More than reasonable that opportunity coulda presented itself in R10 with Hops on the back foot. Hops could see he was chasing and throwing harder that round, no coincidence he ran and time wasted.

Hops KO's Calzaghe, as unlikely. If high to full strength shots from Eubank, Mitchell and Kessler don't even KD, or hurt him, hows Hops gona find an extra 30+% to KO? No way is he that much more powerful than Kessler.

[Kilrain]

Hopkins was able to conserve energy more against Tarver (himself a very lazy fighter who gasses out and breaths heavily after as a few as three damn rounds), and he pulled out a very tight win against Wright, who really had lost a bit of speed up at 170 and Bernard was able to roll back the years in that one.

Nine months can be a long time also for a 43 year old boxer fighting ABOVE his natural weight division.

I do give credit to Calzaghe for pressurizing Hopkins, lets face it he wasn't going to win on skills, as that became very evident from the get go. Hopkins was like a master to Calzaghes rough-edged apprentice, but Joe did keep up the pressure and in the end that undone Hopkins, who in the later stages of his career has managed to utilize quiet spells in the fight to make his most signifcant contribution and eek fights out. Against Calzaghe there were very few quiet spells, and the younger, fitter athlete won out.

Yes Bernard did spoil the fight, he held a lot and did what he had to do, you wont see me denying that because I've watched Bernard for many years and know, we all know, that he has been an ageing fighter for several years, and against Calzaghes workrate it would take a mammoth effort for him to win. He did not win, and I concede that honestly. What he did do was prove that Calzaghe was not the fighter many people thought he was, his work in the first half of the fight made it an over all competitive fight, and his sharp work early indicated just how the fight may have played out had he been able to sustain his work had he been a primed Bernard Hopkins.

What I find most ridiculous about your post is that you consider it a fait accompli that Calzaghe would have beaten a prime Hopkins. Evidently you are a casual fan who has only recently become acquainted to Hop (maybe 2004?). He was always a fantastic counter puncher. The illusion you are acting under is that he was superior at this in his later days; I'll admit he has been a lot more conservative and economical post-40(indeed post-35) but that is not to say he has become superior at it, he was always a brilliant counter puncher, also his defence has really not changed a deal since he was a young fighter, only now he hasnt got the stamina to provide the offense to offset his defensive work, therefore defence tends to dominate as it requires less workrate.

So I'd say you're incorrect on both those points, the defence and countering. As for spoiling, Hopkins has always spoiled, but again as he has got older his spoiling has upped to offset his lack of workrate. Go back to the video player and watch some vintage Hopkins from 160 where he made 20 consecutive defences and was able to press Roy Jones onto the ropes and win rounds even as a green fighter with no title experience. Go watch the Echolls fights, the Keith Holmes fight. The damn Glen Johnson fight. He was a completely different animal. His punch output was brilliant, and he still possessed an excellent defensive guard which deflected and parried many opponents best punches. When the offence dominated he was near unbeatable, and a fight between them in their prime would only showcase the gulf in quality between the two. Hopkins' defence and spoiling already troubled Calzaghe, and his boxing ability and ringcraft early on in April. Now imagine that with added vigour in the offensive field, faster punching (unlike your rhetoric about Hops' skills being sharper now, it is obvious and unarguable that he was faster back then) and you will see the difference

[Clegg]

The chances of Calzaghe KOing Hopkins are very small. Hopkins was way more likely to knockout Calzaghe, he punches deceptively hard. You saw him knock him down.

In the first round yes, but the fact is that your punch resistance is lower when you're tired. It's a lot easier to knock someone out when they've just finished a marathon than when they're still at the starting line.

I'm not saying that Calzaghe would've knocked him out, but I think he had a lot more left in the tank in those last few rounds.

[SkilledB]

Lol. I find it hilarious how apparently a 36 year old Hopkins (against Trinidad) is supposed to beat the harder punching Calzaghe around 30-33.

Jokers...

A 181 lbs Joe Calzaghe beat a 190 lbs Bernard Hopkins.

calzage diddn't hit hopkins with many flush shots, his workrate won him the fight, simple, the nutthuggery is emmince with this one

[sparked_85]

In the first round yes, but the fact is that your punch resistance is lower when you're tired. It's a lot easier to knock someone out when they've just finished a marathon than when they're still at the starting line.

I'm not saying that Calzaghe would've knocked him out, but I think he had a lot more left in the tank in those last few rounds.

I agree. He might have had a chance of stopping him but we don't know

Hopkins cheated.

Why should we forgive him because he is old he is also a complete ****.

[abadger]

Hopkins was able to conserve energy more against Tarver (himself a very lazy fighter who gasses out and breaths heavily after as a few as three damn rounds), and he pulled out a very tight win against Wright, who really had lost a bit of speed up at 170 and Bernard was able to roll back the years in that one.

Nine months can be a long time also for a 43 year old boxer fighting ABOVE his natural weight division.

I do give credit to Calzaghe for pressurizing Hopkins, lets face it he wasn't going to win on skills, as that became very evident from the get go. Hopkins was like a master to Calzaghes rough-edged apprentice, but Joe did keep up the pressure and in the end that undone Hopkins, who in the later stages of his career has managed to utilize quiet spells in the fight to make his most signifcant contribution and eek fights out. Against Calzaghe there were very few quiet spells, and the younger, fitter athlete won out.

Yes Bernard did spoil the fight, he held a lot and did what he had to do, you wont see me denying that because I've watched Bernard for many years and know, we all know, that he has been an ageing fighter for several years, and against Calzaghes workrate it would take a mammoth effort for him to win. He did not win, and I concede that honestly. What he did do was prove that Calzaghe was not the fighter many people thought he was, his work in the first half of the fight made it an over all competitive fight, and his sharp work early indicated just how the fight may have played out had he been able to sustain his work had he been a primed Bernard Hopkins.

What I find most ridiculous about your post is that you consider it a fait accompli that Calzaghe would have beaten a prime Hopkins. Evidently you are a casual fan who has only recently become acquainted to Hop (maybe 2004?). He was always a fantastic counter puncher. The illusion you are acting under is that he was superior at this in his later days; I'll admit he has been a lot more conservative and economical post-40(indeed post-35) but that is not to say he has become superior at it, he was always a brilliant counter puncher, also his defence has really not changed a deal since he was a young fighter, only now he hasnt got the stamina to provide the offense to offset his defensive work, therefore defence tends to dominate as it requires less workrate.

So I'd say you're incorrect on both those points, the defence and countering. As for spoiling, Hopkins has always spoiled, but again as he has got older his spoiling has upped to offset his lack of workrate. Go back to the video player and watch some vintage Hopkins from 160 where he made 20 consecutive defences and was able to press Roy Jones onto the ropes and win rounds even as a green fighter with no title experience. Go watch the Echolls fights, the Keith Holmes fight. The damn Glen Johnson fight. He was a completely different animal. His punch output was brilliant, and he still possessed an excellent defensive guard which deflected and parried many opponents best punches. When the offence dominated he was near unbeatable, and a fight between them in their prime would only showcase the gulf in quality between the two. Hopkins' defence and spoiling already troubled Calzaghe, and his boxing ability and ringcraft early on in April. Now imagine that with added vigour in the offensive field, faster punching (unlike your rhetoric about Hops' skills being sharper now, it is obvious and unarguable that he was faster back then) and you will see the difference

Good post, a lot of what you say about Hopkins is true, and you have a very detailed and insightful understanding of his game. However I must point out that to you it is fait accompli that the skills you describe Hopkins as having throughout his career would unquestionably be enough to beat Joe, but I don't think that you are anything like as familiar with Joe Calzaghe's game. I and many other of his fans could respond with a detailed description of what Calzaghe's technical excellence centred around an uncanny ability to take away the best his opponent has to offer whilst simultaneously exploiting any weakneses in their game for his own advantage, like a more aggressive Bernard Hopkins might do. Calzaghe is a much better boxer than you believe him to be, but in his case you only have to go back as far as the Kessler and Lacy fights to see it, so there really is no excuse for not doing so.

My reading of both these two fighters is that for most of their careers Calzaghe would have had the edge, back in the 90s he would have outworked and outpunched the green Bernard and later in their careers, when I think the fight would be closer I see him winning just exactly the way he recently did. You have to remember that Calzaghe is almost 37 and is declining year on year just like Bernard is, so I don't see any reason to hand Bernard a decisive advantage during any of the years his best wins came in.

[Kilrain]

Kessler is an example virtually the entirety of his fans point to as evidence of Calzaghe's greatness, that was only about five months prior to Hopkins and a five-month gap is pretty standard. This "Joe is getting old too!" argument is crap, as far as I'm concerned. He hasn't got much wear and tear, he's obviously fuelling peoples arguments on that topic based on his comments about retiring, but I don't view him as having declining skills, and am pretty much of the notion that he is in his prime at this moment.

Hopkins, of course, isn't.

I do not believe Calzaghe is in possession of the, as you put it, "technical excellence centred around an uncanny ability to take away the best his opponent has to offer whilst simultaneously exploiting any weakneses in their game for his own advantage, like a more aggressive Bernard Hopkins ", what I do think is that he is and always has been a very busy fighter and the combination of his fast hands and this workrate has been a difficult package to handle. I never said Calzaghe was a bad fighter. But I do not believe he is an overly technical fighter. In terms of skills, prime Hopkins dwarves him. I didn't see an abundance of technical skill, exploiting his rivals weakness etc. against Robin Reid when Calzaghe's skills paled in comparison to Robins, again he won the fight purely on workrate and aggression and fast punching. Which is fine. But that was one of the few fights of Calzaghes where he was partnered with a genuinely prime, gifted boxer who had movement and ideas. Reid fought a great fight. Guys like Lacy and Kessler, although strong, aggressive, don't possess that kind of gift (lets not get into an argument; whos better, what I'm saying is Reid could do things in the ring neither of them could), and therefore the sheer workrate of Calzaghe is enough to usurp them; they cant generate a Plan B

Guys like Lacy, Sheika, Brewer, Salem were stationary targets. It would be very difficult to beat Calzaghe stationary, near impossible. I think if you look at Hopkins from the 97, 98, 99 spell he was never in the same spot for more than a couple of seconds, and his ring craft was superb, but his offensive skill (sharp shooting) and precision would keep guys off as they advanced, not only was their target out of range but he was comng in quickly with counters and tying up/covering up/shuffling back out of punching range.

To be fair, it is obviously not a fact that prime Hopkins would beat Calzaghe, but I'm stating what I think, what in my mind is a virtual certainty, so forgive me for stating it as irrefutable!

[abadger]

Kessler is an example virtually the entirety of his fans point to as evidence of Calzaghe's greatness, that was only about five months prior to Hopkins and a five-month gap is pretty standard. This "Joe is getting old too!" argument is crap, as far as I'm concerned. He hasn't got much wear and tear, he's obviously fuelling peoples arguments on that topic based on his comments about retiring, but I don't view him as having declining skills, and am pretty much of the notion that he is in his prime at this moment.

Hopkins, of course, isn't.

I do not believe Calzaghe is in possession of the, as you put it, "technical excellence centred around an uncanny ability to take away the best his opponent has to offer whilst simultaneously exploiting any weakneses in their game for his own advantage, like a more aggressive Bernard Hopkins ", what I do think is that he is and always has been a very busy fighter and the combination of his fast hands and this workrate has been a difficult package to handle. I never said Calzaghe was a bad fighter. But I do not believe he is an overly technical fighter. In terms of skills, prime Hopkins dwarves him. I didn't see an abundance of technical skill, exploiting his rivals weakness etc. against Robin Reid when Calzaghe's skills paled in comparison to Robins, again he won the fight purely on workrate and aggression and fast punching. Which is fine. But that was one of the few fights of Calzaghes where he was partnered with a genuinely prime, gifted boxer who had movement and ideas. Reid fought a great fight. Guys like Lacy and Kessler, although strong, aggressive, don't possess that kind of gift (lets not get into an argument; whos better, what I'm saying is Reid could do things in the ring neither of them could), and therefore the sheer workrate of Calzaghe is enough to usurp them; they cant generate a Plan B

Guys like Lacy, Sheika, Brewer, Salem were stationary targets. It would be very difficult to beat Calzaghe stationary, near impossible. I think if you look at Hopkins from the 97, 98, 99 spell he was never in the same spot for more than a couple of seconds, and his ring craft was superb, but his offensive skill (sharp shooting) and precision would keep guys off as they advanced, not only was their target out of range but he was comng in quickly with counters and tying up/covering up/shuffling back out of punching range.

To be fair, it is obviously not a fact that prime Hopkins would beat Calzaghe, but I'm stating what I think, what in my mind is a virtual certainty, so forgive me for stating it as irrefutable!

Calzaghe relies almost completely on his technical ability to win his fights, coupled with terrific stamina and chin which is how he manages to beat guys so decisively whilst giving away so much in terms of power, it is also the reason why he struggles most with other technical fighters, who unlike most have answers to his adjustments. There is much more to technical ability than punching technique and Calzaghe outside of this one area is one of the most technically gifted in the game today, I promise.

How can you watch the Lacy and Kessler fights and claim that Joe has little technical skill? Both of these fights were won because his opponents could not hit him very often, not because he 'outworked them'. He did beat Hopkins on workrate, because Hopkins was able to do to Joe what Joe does to most of his opponents, albeit in a slightly different way.

[Dick-Sucker]

Watch this **** again, round 10.

Calzaghe was getting in the zone round 9, really finding his rhythm so Bernard has to fake a low blow to get a breather and to stop Calzaghe knocking him out.

Took you 2 months to realise lol?

[Kris Silver]

Some good points have been raised in the last few posts on both sides. To comment on a few;

Nine months can be a long time also for a 43 year old boxer fighting ABOVE his natural weight division.

True to an extent, but no to the extent I think some all to conveniently make out. As abdager rightly said, Calzaghe is 37, past him prime in athletically. His style is aggressive, high work rate, which is hard on any athlete, so quite an accomplishment at 37 to pull off and not get tired. Nard's style is minimal movement, punches, countering, conserving energy. So when you put these two together, Calzaghe was probably spending as much energy on chasing the fight, as Hopkins saves energy avoiding a fight, to it almost brings them equal when you think about it. It's like of football or soccer, one old team keeps relentlessly booting the ball away, requiring the opposition to put a lot of energy in to steer the game on track and win. Weight wise, Calzaghe had not been at LHW before whilst Hopkins was, so that argument is prob more complimentary of Calzaghe.

I do give credit to Calzaghe for pressurizing Hopkins, lets face it he wasn't going to win on skills, as that became very evident from the get go.

Here lies a key issue I think, you dont credit for whatever reason, Calzaghe with the skills most accept he has. He has stacks of skill, often un orthodox, not picture perfect, or always works no. But his skills are at the elite level in terms of speed, punch output, accuracy, athleticism, strength, movement, mental strength, tactics, adaptability and many more. Sorry but all these attributes would beat a more aggressive, more punching Hopkins all day, just as Calzaghe has with an array of his opponents. This is what I think you don't recognise, it's widely known Hops is a style opposite and nitemare for Joe. Hops best weapons and successes against Joe were defence, countering and spoiling. These are such experience, style, athletically driven skills to hone, he wasn't known quite so much for them in his prime as he was later on. With his experience, ring intelligence it's reasonable to say they were well honed post 40, especially so in his training and tactics going into the Calzaghe fight better than ever. Credit where credits due.

your punch resistance is lower when you're tired. It's a lot easier to knock someone out when they've just finished a marathon than when they're still at the starting line.

Great point. In such a battle of the opposite stlyes, Hops was fighting at a pace, speed pressure he simply was not used to. Rarely if ever would his punch resistance have been so low late in that fight then in any before. It would't have taken as hard a shot as usual to give him trouble. A hard body shot to the gut for eg. could have winded him, leaving him unable to get up, in something akin to when Hatton landed a plush body shot, his opponent wasn't majorly hurt, but out worked, confused, exhausted, winded, dead legs from the high pace etc.