Larry Holmes Is The Goat Heavyweight

[QueensburyRules]

Doesn't mean it isn't valid. Shannon Briggs just got a gift decision, but it's valid most of the time. Larry Holmes was THE champ after he beat the shell of Ali, who held the Ring championship belt. Why he didn't go for the WBA belt, I don't know. Maybe it was held by a Don King fighter and couldn't get the deal done? One of our historians here will probably know and can elaborate on that. IBF title came much later, around 1985. Holmes had 12 defenses of the lineal title after beating Ali, so Holmes was the top heavyweight until Spinks and Tyson came along.

- -Huh? Lar was a King fighter.

DKing infamous double dipper of his stable.

[slicksouthpaw16]

- -You sayin' 28 yr old Ali was shot after his return to the ring in advance of the soon to be Supreme ruling?

Don't know about you, but in spite of some serious setbacks in my reckless youth, I was invincible in those years. Did Ali suddenly turn into a weenie? If so, I didn't see that at all.

Not shot but definitely past his physical prime. Legs weren't the same, he lingered on the ropes for big portions of fights etc. His slower reflexes actually affected his defense. Compare and contrast Folley, Liston and Williams Ali to Frazier, Norton Bonavena Ali. Pre exile Ali could keep a fight in the middle of the ring for an entire fight because of how fresh/faster his legs were, definitely not the same post exile.

I'm a big advocate for not letting age become a measuring stick to weather a fighter is in his prime or not. Fernando Vargas was never the same after Trinidad and he was only 23. Camacho mentally (IMO), wasn't the same after the Rosario fight and he was around 24. Meanwhile fighters like Hopkins, Liston, Moore and several other fighters were still peaking well into their 30's.

[slicksouthpaw16]

- -You sayin' 28 yr old Ali was shot after his return to the ring in advance of the soon to be Supreme ruling?

Don't know about you, but in spite of some serious setbacks in my reckless youth, I was invincible in those years. Did Ali suddenly turn into a weenie? If so, I didn't see that at all.

Just like Leonard when he came back from retirement, clearly you seen a difference in his legs and reflexes. Ironically to your point, he had just turned 28 a few days after the Kevin Howard fight.

[QueensburyRules]

Not shot but definitely past his physical prime. Legs weren't the same, he lingered on the ropes for big portions of fights etc. His slower reflexes actually affected his defense. Compare and contrast Folley, Liston and Williams Ali to Frazier, Norton Bonavena Ali. Pre exile Ali could keep a fight in the middle of the ring for an entire fight because of how fresh/faster his legs were, definitely not the same post exile.

I'm a big advocate for not letting age become a measuring stick to weather a fighter is in his prime or not. Fernando Vargas was never the same after Trinidad and he was only 23. Camacho mentally (IMO), wasn't the same after the Rosario fight and he was around 24. Meanwhile fighters like Hopkins, Liston, Moore and several other fighters were still peaking well into their 30's.

- -Comparing thoroughbreds to Clydesdale? Flies to fleas?

Ali rightly felt stronger in his comeback and wanted to fight that way.

[QueensburyRules]

Just like Leonard when he came back from retirement, clearly you seen a difference in his legs and reflexes. Ironically to your point, he had just turned 28 a few days after the Kevin Howard fight.

- -Ray had a medical retirement, not Ali. Big difference.

[slicksouthpaw16]

- -Comparing thoroughbreds to Clydesdale? Flies to fleas?

Ali rightly felt stronger in his comeback and wanted to fight that way.

He probably felt stronger but I'm sure he didn't feel faster/more agile. That's why I rank Ali as the greatest heavyweight of all time. The majority of his greatest wins and accomplishments came after exile/prime when he slowed down. He was beating hall of famers and top contenders with old legs and adjusted his style to compensate for his declining abilities.

[slicksouthpaw16]

- -Ray had a medical retirement, not Ali. Big difference.

Ray retired because of his eye, not because of his declining speed/legs/reflexes. Either way, It shows that years being out of the game in your prime is crucial. Look at both of their final fights pre retirement and compare them to their comeback fights or the rest of their career period. Quite easy to see the difference and Ali was off a year and half longer than Ray was. Literally neither was the same.

[Ben Bolt]

Doesn't mean it isn't valid. Shannon Briggs just got a gift decision, but it's valid most of the time. Larry Holmes was THE champ after he beat the shell of Ali, who held the Ring championship belt. Why he didn't go for the WBA belt, I don't know. Maybe it was held by a Don King fighter and couldn't get the deal done? One of our historians here will probably know and can elaborate on that. IBF title came much later, around 1985. Holmes had 12 defenses of the lineal title after beating Ali, so Holmes was the top heavyweight until Spinks and Tyson came along.

In the 80s, we didn’t pay much attention to the alphabet orgs. It was still the lineal title – a century of tradition – that counted, and we knew the rightful owner of it in most weight classes.

In the case of world champion Holmes, there was no reason for him to chase the WBA title. But for the WBA alphabet champions to challenge him to have a chance to be recognized as legitimate world title holders.

These days, several ‘world titles’ in every weight class might seem natural for a younger generation, but for us old followers there can only be one/class, and we ain’t that attracted to the sport anymore. To us, the increasing power of the alphabet orgs have ruined the sport.

Boxing — the only sport with more champions than challengers.

[QueensburyRules]

Ray retired because of his eye, not because of his declining speed/legs/reflexes. Either way, It shows that years being out of the game in your prime is crucial. Look at both of their final fights pre retirement and compare them to their comeback fights or the rest of their career period. Quite easy to see the difference and Ali was off a year and half longer than Ray was. Literally neither was the same.

- -Guess you never heard of what getting old does to reflexes in the fight biz.

Age 28-29 Ali was not old, he was prime.

When did he get old?

I suggest post Big George where he looked shot vs Wepner and subsequent fights.
George also ruined Field as any glimpse of that time line shows.

[slicksouthpaw16]

- -Guess you never heard of what getting old does to reflexes in the fight biz.

Age 28-29 Ali was not old, he was prime.

When did he get old?

I suggest post Big George where he looked shot vs Wepner and subsequent fights.
George also ruined Field as any glimpse of that time line shows.

He was past his prime but still an elite fighter and he obviously wasn't old. Some fighters are just that great. Mayweather has been past his prime ever since he stepped foot at 147 IMO, he too even he made changes to his style to compensate as well.

I see prime as being the weight class or physical peak where a fighter was the absolute best version of themselves. Can we call Toney prime when he beat up John Ruiz at heavyweight for the title? Foreman against Moore? De La Hoya when he beat Mayorga? Mosley vs Margarito? Leonard vs Hagler? Neither fighter was prime IMO, but still quality champions. Maybe we just have different definitions of prime, it's something that has always been debated in terms of the literal definition.