Jack Johnson vs Fireman Flynn. Did you know

[Willie Pep 229]

He seems to know something, admission of facts does not seem to be a strong suit.

Since he says he located in Queens, my advice to him, and for a serious boxing fan its golden if go to Brooklyn and check out what Hank Kaplan donated to the Brooklyn library. No spoilers, but he just might learn a thing or two about Johnson, that is if he takes the good with the bad.

Kaplan a few years back was probably the best living historian of the game. What was his in garage, stacked in shoe boxes was pretty amazing.

I had the wonderful pleasure and honor once down here in Miami to be given a tour of Hank Kaplan's garage by the old man himself it was a wonderful night. He was like one of those mentally ill hoarders but it was a house filled with boxing.

[travestyny]

Hi!

I got a weird question for you . . . Was this to be a championship fight ?

It has some very strange wording: "Champion will be Jeannett's Opponent"

It almost as if the fight is being billed as a "Jeanette" showcase/exhibition.

Also there is no mention of the championship being on the line.

But on the other hand the expected numbers certainly suggest a HW Championship fight.

Of course this was August 1912 which means they were not going to let him fight anymore anyway; he was on his way out of the country he just didn't know it yet.

Also the Sims Act was passed just two weeks earlier so there would be no film revenues but they likely hadn't wrapped their heads around that yet.

Of course it was for the championship. Jack Johnson acknowledged that it was, Joe Jeannette's manager acknowledged that it was, the promoters acknowledged that it was. We had this conversation here before.

"for the heavyweight championship"


Jeannette's Manager: "...for the championship title"

Johnson to "prevent title from slipping away"

[travestyny]

I had it right the first time. You're a fan boy. All these contracts and always an excuse, even when Johnson signed for it. Langford example.

You are welcome to try to insult me any way that you'd like, but the fact of the matter is that you are failing in your proof. So what does that make you?

Once again, where is the contract that Johnson signed for the May 1909 bout? How many times do I have to ask you for it before you admit that it doesn't exist?

Here's what I acknowledge, Johnson had numerous offers to fight Jeanette. Even if he did want to go through with a fight with Jeannette, his history of backing out towers over one signature ( 1912 ) that you come with. ( The article says nothing about Jeannette's take ) You know it, I know it and most of all you know that I know it. If I need to post some of them and ask you why it didn't' happen the excuse of the fight was on a Tuesday hasn't been used yet.

I gave you Jeannette quote and its damming. " When Jack became champion he forgot his old friends, and drew the color line against his own people "

You are simply using a headline to justify numerous ducks by Johnson. I saw the headline. Sometimes Dempsey fans use the famous signing of Wills fight, which of course the NY Site commission voted against 2-1.

What was Jeannette getting for this offer? I think you should post that, if you know. The article says nothing about that.

Why didn't this fight happen, and why could it not be moved to France or Australia where other offers where bigger in the press for Johnson to fight? Why?

At this point I have to ask, where do you think Johnson rates, head to head. The way your a defending him, I can only imagine.

I can come up with lots of headlines here for Johnson on fights he should have taken that never happened and play your game. I'll have many more article on my side, if that's your game. Also I can quote Johnson's manager.

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Joe_Jeanette

After Johnson became the first African-American Heavyweight Champion of the World on December 26, 1908, he never again fought Jeanette, despite numerous challenges. Johnson's refusal to fight African-Americans offended the African-American community. Jeanette criticized Johnson, saying, "Jack forgot about his old friends after he became champion and drew the color line against his own people."

I've asked you over and over to show the offers, but you've failed. I don't know what you are waiting for.


This bout was clearly called off by the commission. So I ask you again, and try not to duck this time:

Did Jack Johnson agree to fight Joe Jeannette for the championship? Yes or no?


Why are you worried about what Joe Jeannette was getting? Even his manager acknowledge that the fight was already set up.


I don't care how upset you get at the facts, but the facts are there. The question is, why won't you acknowledge the facts. Why do you keep ducking it. I wonder why.


Did Jack Johnson agree to fight Joe Jeannette for the championship when offered north of $25,000? Yes or no?


Speaking of Joe Jeannette's Manager, here he is stating that Jeannette and Johnson are matched to fight FOR THE TITLE.

So you going to tell me that this is fake news?


Jeannette's Manager: "...who is to fight Jack Johnson for the championship title..."

Now let's see if you can simply admit that Jack Johnson agreed to fight Jeannette for the title. What say you, hmmmmm?

Oh yea, here is your proof that it was called off by the commission, not by Johnson.

So what say you now?

[travestyny]

He seems to know something, admission of facts does not seem to be a strong suit.

Since he says he located in Queens, my advice to him, and for a serious boxing fan its golden if go to Brooklyn and check out what Hank Kaplan donated to the Brooklyn library. No spoilers, but he just might learn a thing or two about Johnson, that is if he takes the good with the bad.

Kaplan a few years back was probably the best living historian of the game. What was his in garage, stacked in shoe boxes was pretty amazing.

I think you need to learn something about Johnson.


Being that all of your proof against him turns out to be absolutely nothing and you just play a cat and mouse game of running from the facts


And it's really funny that you're so upset about all of this. Like you've got some kind of personal agenda in it all. Why so mad, Dr. Z? I've only been calling you out to post facts. Are you upset because you haven't done so well in your proof?

Where is the contract that you claimed Johnson broke? And you brought up Dempsey and the commission. lol. In case you didn't know, there is a court brief outlining that Dempsey broke the contract for Harry Wills. I wonder if you can find something like that for Johnson/Langford May 1909 bout. Please come back and let us know when you've found it, mmmkay?


"but but but...his $30,000 was stolen after the Moran fight. That proves he could have fought Langford for $4000"

Things like that is what makes your arguments truly pathetic.

[Dr. Z]

I had the wonderful pleasure and honor once down here in Miami to be given a tour of Hank Kaplan's garage by the old man himself it was a wonderful night. He was like one of those mentally ill hoarders but it was a house filled with boxing.

Very cool. It was a treasure trove, and one of the last existing. Hank could have sold is for a lot of money but chose donation instead. RIP. Hank.

[Dr. Z]

You are welcome to try to insult me any way that you'd like, but the fact of the matter is that you are failing in your proof. So what does that make you?

Once again, where is the contract that Johnson signed for the May 1909 bout? How many times do I have to ask you for it before you admit that it doesn't exist?


I've asked you over and over to show the offers, but you've failed. I don't know what you are waiting for.


This bout was clearly called off by the commission. So I ask you again, and try not to duck this time:

Did Jack Johnson agree to fight Joe Jeannette for the championship? Yes or no?


Why are you worried about what Joe Jeannette was getting? Even his manager acknowledge that the fight was already set up.


I don't care how upset you get at the facts, but the facts are there. The question is, why won't you acknowledge the facts. Why do you keep ducking it. I wonder why.


Did Jack Johnson agree to fight Joe Jeannette for the championship when offered north of $25,000? Yes or no?


Speaking of Joe Jeannette's Manager, here he is stating that Jeannette and Johnson are matched to fight FOR THE TITLE.

So you going to tell me that this is fake news?


Jeannette's Manager: "...who is to fight Jack Johnson for the championship title..."

Now let's see if you can simply admit that Jack Johnson agreed to fight Jeannette for the title. What say you, hmmmmm?

Oh yea, here is your proof that it was called off by the commission, not by Johnson.

So what say you now?

I told you there was a signed contract. Just because I didn't save it / or have it handy means nothing. You want proof, okay here it is, keep reading.

You failed to produce what's in it for Jeanette in the 1912 contact. Why??? Yes I agree that Johnson singed this one ( HE KNEW HE FIGHT WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN THE USA ) , he avoided many others. Understand. Probably not, you're an excuse machine.

Heres the news:

May 3, 1909 – The World (New York)

Black Champion Proves He Tampers With The Truth.

His Agreement to Box Before the National Sporting Club of London Was Signed with His Own Hand. ( GOT THAT travestyny )

He Tried to Shift the Responsibility to Others.
World Produces Photograph of His Signed Letter - Opinion of Secretary of Club.

By William P. McLoughlin

Very few persons who have followed the course of Mistah Jack Johnson since he won the heavyweight championship of the world by walloping little Tommy Burns need to be told of the absolute indifference of the big negro to either truth or candor. Those, however, who like the man from Missouri, must "be shown" before they will believe and derive the most convincing proof of Johnson's dishonorable character from the letter which I print in this column and the photographic facsimile which accompanied that letter from London.

It will be remembered that the moment Johnson was proclaimed heavyweight champion he began to suffer from what a facetious friend of mine would call "elephantiasis of the cranium," but which the erudite Kid Griffo describes as the "swelled cocoa."

Dropped His Friends Overboard:

Johnson as soon as he gained the title, had no further use for the men who had stood by him when he was hustling after a snack of pork and chicken. Sam Fitzpatrick, who went broke and kept on borrowing from his friends to grub stake Johnson in the vague hope of getting it back when he would succeed in working the negro into the championship class, was cast aside. Johnson gave no earthly reason for this act of gross ingratitude. Fitzpatrick the faithful had to beat it back to San Francisco from Australia with all his pockets turned inside out, while the slugger he befriended arrived with bulging pocketbook and a bushel of resin unerative contracts.

More offers were made here. The negro promptly began to sidestep those to which he was already bound so as to hitch up with newer and more ******* ones. Right and left he disregarded his moral as well as literal obligations. So far did he go in this direction that in order to allay in some measure the popular indignation he began to worse than romance. He liked like the lamented Joe Mulhatton or Tom Ochiltree. He was worse than a gas meter. He blamed this, that or the other person for having signed contracts for him of which he knew nothing whatsoever.

When he threw over his agreement to box Sam Langford before the National Sporting Club in London, he declared that he had never agreed to any such proposition.

The Proof of It Is Here:

I am enabled today to present a damming proof of the four-flushing negro's duplicity and bad faith. The photograph (next column) shows Johnson's own letter to the club, signed by himself, in which he makes the offer to meet Langford. The camera does not lie.

Following is a letter from Mr. Bettinson, secretary of the National Sporting Club, which I received today:

National Sporting Club, Ltd.,
Covent Garden, W.C.
April 23, 1909

Dear Sir - I cabled you the other day that Johnson's statements were untrue, in consequence of several American newspaper cuttings I had received, in which he stated he repudiated Fitzpatrick's contracts, as if he had not any knowledge of what had been done.

Of course you will see by the enclosed photograph, that Johnson was absolutely personally responsible. In fact, the suggestion to box Langford for the same purse, win or lose, with Burns, came from him; and at the time, I thought it very decent of him to make the offer. The club did not ask him to do so, and I am quite certain we should always have been willing to have made a bigger offer, in the event of a victory over Burns. However, he is a ******, and a very bad type of one; and, as far as the club is concerned, we do not wish to bother about him, but when I see him making lying statements in the American Papers, I think it only right that I should repudiate them.

I think Johnson is throwing away the substance for the shadow, as he had 6,000 pounds worth of contracts booked up in London for six months of easy work. Of course, he may get more money in American, but I think this is pretty good booking for a black man.

I am pleased to say, we have got a good English champion. He is a big fellow, fourteen stone, and can really box well. He knocked out Moir in 2 min. 47 sec. on Monday evening last, and could do it at any time when called upon. Personally, I think he would have a great chance with Tommy Burns. How he will fare with Langford, I do not know, but he is very confident that no twelve-stone man can beat him. As a matter of fact he has seen Johnson, and think he could beat him. Still, we must wait to see how he goes with Langford before saying too much.

Sincerely yours,

A.F. Bettinson

No wonder Johnson is hissed and hooted at his every appearance on the stage here. Lovers of boxing the world over are naturally lovers of fair play. There is no other game which is so keenly sensitive to the touch of dishonor, and when there comes along a faker he generally reaps the reward for which he has sown the seen.

Langford is little better than Johnson. He has tricked and "pulled" and faked in the ring whenever it suited the purpose of his backers. He has hopped aside when Johnson almost caught with the goods on him.

I should like to see the two of 'em inside the ropes, and I'd like very much to see them wind up like the snake who got his tail in his mouth and swallowed himself holds bolus. I'd send a couple of wreaths.

[travestyny]

The photograph (next column) shows Johnson's own letter to the club, signed by himself, in which he makes the offer to meet Langford. The camera does not lie.

This is what we need. Show us the photograph. Where is it?


The only thing Bettinson ever showed was Johnson agreeing to the February match, which was before Burns signed and which was put off when Burns agreed to fight Johnson. So I'm assuming this new letter is about the May 1909 fight?


Can you show us the picture?

[Dr. Z]

This is what we need. Show us the photograph. Where is it?


The only thing Bettinson ever showed was Johnson agreeing to the February match, which was before Burns signed and which was put off when Burns agreed to fight Johnson. So I'm assuming this new letter is about the May 1909 fight?


Can you show us the picture?

Did you read the article? It's ends the debate and shows Johnson as a dishonorable liar. If they are taking about a photograph on the next page, it's there.

You are reaching the point of no return. By the way, I'm still waiting for what Jeannete was offered in the 1912 contract your taking about about. Rest assured I have plenty of other offers to post which Johnson never took.

What did you think of the Flynn fight and the comments by those at ringside?

In this title run, Johnson was floored and hurt by a crude Ketchel, was gassing vs Flynn according to those who were there, and very luck to draw with Jim Battling Johnson who sported a journeyman's record? The heavyweight champion of the world? Such results and opponents would be unacceptable are ripped by the media today.

Prior to facing these opponents, articles say he was dead even with O'brien who was little more than a middle weight, and stunned by a journeyman in Ross.

How many excuses can you give to the above?

When he faced men in their prime close to his size, he LOST. Ko'd cold by Choynski, Out pointed by an old Griffin, and lost to Marvin Hart. Not that these there were all time greats, but they were not too small or too green and yet look at the results. IMO these three were better than his title competition.

The Jeffries fight hardly counts, sort of like Larry Holmes beating Ali except Jeffries was inactive for 6 years, over weight and had zero warm up fights. I don't blame Johnson for taking this one, there was too much money it it.

I do blame him for not fighting Langford, Jeannette and McVey as Champion, and as well as the top white talent in Gunboat Smith, ( Who TKO'd Johnson in an EX match when he was champion, and beat Johnson title opponents, several of them ) and McCarthy while he was alive.

[Clegg]

You failed to produce what's in it for Jeanette in the 1912 contact. Why??? Yes I agree that Johnson singed this one ( HE KNEW HE FIGHT WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN THE USA ) , he avoided many others. Understand. Probably not, you're an excuse machine.

Why would Johnson bother agreeing to something he knew wouldn't happen? How come nobody else (promoters, managers, media) knew the fight wouldn't happen when they arranged it? Only Johnson figured it out?

[travestyny]

Did you read the article? It's ends the debate and shows Johnson as a dishonorable liar. If they are taking about a photograph on the next page, it's there.

Not it doesn't because as I've already said to you a billion times, what is being referred to is a bout for February that was postponed. There is NO information about a contract for May. THAT is what we need.

There is no indication that Jack Johnson signed a contract for a May 1909 bout, or that he agreed to do it for the same money as the bout he agreed to for February. Here it is again and you'll see EXACTLY what I'm telling you.

Clearly states that this is the contract that Bennison released. It's regarding the fight for FEBRUARY.

It also clearly states that Johnson says he did NOT sign a contract for MAY.

Mind you, a contract that it was already revealed that even Langford hadn't signed as of yet. And they were still working out the money for Langford and pitching offers for both of them. So why is it that the terms were all agreed upon if they are still negotiating with the fighters, hmmm?

Woodman has wired Bettison stating his terms and if the latter agrees to them the match will likely be made within the next few days.

The English club officials asked the two blacks several months ago to agree to fight in London in the event that Johnson was successful over Burns and both apparently promised at that time.The men have received several offers from Bettison since, but as no definite date was fixed the matter was allowed to drag.

You are reaching the point of no return. By the way, I'm still waiting for what Jeannete was offered in the 1912 contract your taking about about. Rest assured I have plenty of other offers to post which Johnson never took.

Why would you need the purse if his manager acknowledged that the fight was agreed to? Do I have to post it again?

So are you saying that this is a forgery and the commission canceled a made up bout?

You're wrong. But please do show all of your offers. I've been waiting a long time.

What did you think of the Flynn fight and the comments by those at ringside?

I have no problem with any comments made on any fights. What am I supposed to think of them? Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

In this title run, Johnson was floored and hurt by a crude Ketchel, was gassing vs Flynn according to those who were there, and very luck to draw with Jim Battling Johnson who sported a journeyman's record? The heavyweight champion of the world? Such results and opponents would be unacceptable are ripped by the media today.

Oh please. He played up the Ketchel punch, didn't seem to have any problem with Flynn at all, and he broke his arm vs. Jim but don't let that stop you from saying outlandish bullshlt.

Prior to facing these opponents, articles say he was dead even with O'brien who was little more than a middle weight, and stunned by a journeyman in Ross.

Again, what's your point?

How many excuses can you give to the above?

Why would I need to make excuses for him winning? It's a fvvcking fight. Is his opponent supposed to be tickling him???

When he faced men in their prime close to his size, he LOST. Ko'd cold by Choynski, Out pointed by an old Griffin, and lost to Marvin Hart. Not that these there were all time greats, but they were not too small or too green and yet look at the results. IMO these three were better than his title competition.

LMAO. You have the nerve to bring up Choynski????? How many fights did Jack Johnson have when he fought Choynski? Do you really think all of the bullshlt you say is impressive??? That's like you pointing out that Langford lost to some dude named Danny Duane.

But you know what...sure. Go ahead and bring up the 1901 Choynski and Griffin fights. So Johnson gets full credit for beating on Langford, right? Right??????

Again, you are welcome to your opinion. What does your opinion mean to me?

The Jeffries fight hardly counts, sort of like Larry Holmes beating Ali except Jeffries was inactive for 6 years, over weight and had zero warm up fights. I don't blame Johnson for taking this one, there was too much money it it.

We get the point. You are not a fan. That still doesn't explain why you tell lies about him (knockdown vs. Langford my ass), give outlandish statements (claiming him being robbed of his money vs. Moran means he should have fought Langford for as little as $2000), dodge the truth (can't accept that he agreed to fight Langford, McVey, and Jeannette), and give half truths to fit your agenda (broken arm vs. Jim Johnson etc.)

I do blame him for not fighting Langford, Jeannette and McVey as Champion, and as well as the top white talent in Gunboat Smith, ( Who TKO'd Johnson in an EX match when he was champion, and beat Johnson title opponents, several of them ) and McCarthy while he was alive.

The questions still remain that you won't answer.

Did he agree to fight Langford in Australia?

Did he agree to fight Joe Jeannette in NYC?
Edit---my bad, I see you finally did say that he agreed to fight Jeannette, but you state that he only did it because hew knew it wouldn't happen. lol. Another poster already called you out for this, rightfully so.


Simple questions. Let's see if you can admit it. OHHHHH...and where is the May 1909 contract that he supposedly signed?