Jack Johnson vs Fireman Flynn. Did you know

[travestyny]

1 ) Its not my point that Flynn could have won and Johnson was trining out on the heat its the first hand reports of those who were there. This means a lot for those using primary sources. While Flynn was flowing, Johnson stated to hold a lot a he tired.



2 ) Don't call me dishonest. $21,000 is the amount Johnson took for this fight, not the advertised amount of $30,000 This has been confirmed by author and historian Adam Pollack in his book " In the ring with Jack Johnson " I suggest you pick up a copy. Box Rec is a resource where the last person who edits it creates the narrative, which makes it prone to errors. It's good in a general sense, not for smaller details.

My point, if you did not picked up on it yet, is Johnson could have fought anyone in the world and his purse demands were not always meet. That fact puts a defense minded person person who uses excuses for Johnson out of business.

Dude, are you saying that he was never promised $30,000 for the fight?

Examples being the Flynn fight, and the Moran fight.

This is irrelevant when he was promised $30,000 or over for both of these fights. That's my point with what you have been doing. You've been presenting information in a way that is skewed. You don't give the full facts because they contradict the point you are trying to make.

The Johnson vs Flynn fight was lightly attended, had it been say Sam Langford instead, it is my opinion it would have drawn more fans and Johnson would have made more money. But we both known Johnson had a way blowing off signed contacts, and saying he can't fight so and so because there isn't enough money in it, meanwhile he's making less money and in one case none for fighting.

Based on Johnson performance vs Flynn, and the fight after that one, Langford probably would have taken him that day.

For his next fight, Johnson fought Jim Battling Johnson, and he escaped with a draw, almost out after 10 rounds. This fight proves that two black men could draw for a championship level fight, and that Johnson could have fought any opponent in the world in France.

Um, no, none of what you said proves anything except that it was your opinion that Johnson would have lost to Langford. And that's fine. Again, you are welcome to your opinion.

You still haven't proven any contract was broken by Johnson. You didn't even try.

And you are still trying to argue that he should have put up the title for $4000. That's a ****** move by any prizefighter.


And wasn't the Jim Johnson fight supposed to be an exhibition just for Johnson to pick up some extra cash before fighting Moran. Unfortunately he broke his arm and the Moran fight had to be postponed...But again, you don't mention the broken arm because it doesn't fit your agenda. You seem to rather leave out pertinent info to sway people, and that's what I find to be dishonest.

[Dr. Z]

Dude, are you saying that he was never promised $30,000 for the fight?



This is irrelevant when he was promised $30,000 or over for both of these fights. That's my point with what you have been doing. You've been presenting information in a way that is skewed. You don't give the full facts because they contradict the point you are trying to make.





Um, no, none of what you said proves anything except that it was your opinion that Johnson would have lost to Langford. And that's fine. Again, you are welcome to your opinion.

You still haven't proven any contract was broken by Johnson. You didn't even try.

And you are still trying to argue that he should have put up the title for $4000. That's a ****** move by any prizefighter.


And wasn't the Jim Johnson fight supposed to be an exhibition just for Johnson to pick up some extra cash before fighting Moran. Unfortunately he broke his arm and the Moran fight had to be postponed...But again, you don't mention the broken arm because it doesn't fit your agenda. You seem to rather leave out pertinent info to sway people, and that's what I find to be dishonest.

Let's get a few things right.

I'm saying

1 ) Johnson could have fought better and in different nations but didn't and settled for less money that 30k to fight Flynn, a fight that ringsider reporters ( I quoted them ) , felt that Johnson was fading in before the round 8-9 DQ. Agreed? I also have the 0$ fight vs Moran, AND the Battling Jim Johnson fight, which I don't have the purse amount to, but was likely much lower than the Flynn fight.

2 ) I told you according to Clay Moyle, author and historian on Sam Langford regarding the contract. He has the full story of the contact in his book. Johnson pulled out of a contract to meet him. That's Johnson fault! Who are you to say other wise? I guess a signed contract mean nothing to you? You signed it, you fight.

3 ) There are numerous offers in the press for Johnson to fight Langford, Jeannette, and some case McVey. 30k, 50k, 100k! They never happened. I could list plenty of them. I could say Gunboat Smith, or McCarty while he was alive were much better than who Johnson had title defenses against and be right. Yet he fought NONE of them as champion. I'm not crowning myself anything, but my infromation, in some cases I suspect which you have not seen ( Flynn fight ) is good enough.

4 ) That arm injury you are reffing to likely happen in the last round ( 10th ) when the fighters fell to the mat in a mix up and it was only a slight fracture of a radius bone. Battling Jim was the better. One Judge said he was the winner, the other two called it a draw. I suppose you want to see proof of the fall in the 10th. Sure thing

A cabled article printed in the Evening World (New York City) stated:

" Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts. "

^^ In otherwords, if this bout was 12, 15 or 20 rounds, we probably have new champion. Johnson was on his way out. There is NO proof of when Johnson hurt his arm. The 3rd round is the promoters story to excuse a bad effort. A slight fracture of a radius bone in RARE in boxing and usually happen to people they suffer a fall. To tip you to something there is good chance this film exists today, though I have not seen it.

[travestyny]

Let's get a few things right.

I'm saying

1 ) Johnson could have fought better and in different nations but didn't and settled for less money that 30k to fight Flynn, a fight that ringsider reporters ( I quoted them ) , felt that Johnson was fading in before the round 8-9 DQ. Agreed? I also have the 0$ fight vs Moran, AND the Battling Jim Johnson fight, which I don't have the purse amount to, but was likely much lower than the Flynn fight.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up what ringside reporters thought of the fight? What is the point of that?

And you are blatantly ignoring what I'm saying is a key issue here. Was he promised $30,000 for these fights.

It was reported that he agreed to take less TWO DAYS BEFORE the Flynn fight. As for the Moran fight, the $30,000 was taken AFTER the fight had concluded.

So how exactly does this advance your agenda?

The Jim Johnson fight was a money grab to be had right before the Moran fight. And I don't think it helps you prove anything, being that it did miserably. It brought in something like $5000.

2 ) I told you according to Clay Moyle, author and historian on Sam Langford regarding the contract. He has the full story of the contact in his book. Johnson pulled out of a contract to meet him. That's Johnson fault! Who are you to say other wise? I guess a signed contract mean nothing to you? You signed it, you fight.

Dude, I told you that I looked over this book and it did NOT mention anything about a contract for the proposed May 1909 bout.

You never posted any information about this bout. Who am I to say otherwise???? I've posted various sources regarding this issue while you have posted absolutely nothing. There was no contract signed by Jack Johnson for the May 1909 fight. If there was, then show it to us!

3 ) There are numerous offers in the press for Johnson to fight Langford, Jeannette, and some case McVey. 30k, 50k, 100k! They never happened. I could list plenty of them. I could say Gunboat Smith, or McCarty while he was alive were much better than who Johnson had title defenses against and be right. Yet he fought NONE of them as champion. I'm not crowning myself anything, but my infromation, in some cases I suspect which you have not seen ( Flynn fight ) is good enough.

I've invited you to list the $30,000 offers and you haven't. So I don't know what you are waiting for. I've already listed fights for that amount or very close to it that were accepted.

It's like you're playing a cat and mouse game. Just post what you have.

4 ) That arm injury you are reffing to likely happen in the last round ( 10th ) when the fighters fell to the mat in a mix up and it was only a slight fracture of a radius bone. Battling Jim was the better. One Judge said he was the winner, the other two called it a draw. I suppose you want to see proof of the fall in the 10th. Sure thing

A cabled article printed in the Evening World (New York City) stated:

" Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts. "

^^ In otherwords, if this bout was 12, 15 or 20 rounds, we probably have new champion. Johnson was on his way out. There is NO proof of when Johnson hurt his arm. The 3rd round is the promoters story to excuse a bad effort. A slight fracture of a radius bone in RARE in boxing and usually happen to people they suffer a fall. To tip you to something there is good chance this film exists today, though I have not seen it.

Dude, there are various other sources that say he injured it even before the fight. Some say he injured it early in the fight.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? I'm not arguing with you about how good you think he was. It doesn't concern me if you think he should have lost every single match, or if he just barely beat these guys. You are welcome to your opinion.

It doesn't change the fact that there was no signed contract for Langford that you have shown us, you haven't shown any other $30,000 offers that he ducked, and you refuse to acknowledge the fights that he accepted.

[travestyny]

Dr. Z


This is simply to see if we are capable of discussing this honestly.

Do you acknowledge that Jack Johnson agreed to put up the title against Joe Jeannette in 1912?

[The Old LefHook]

I acknowledge Travestyny is a registered, thoroughbred halfwit.

[travestyny]

I acknowledge Travestyny is a registered, thoroughbred halfwit.

All you have to do is comment on the topic with anything that makes sense.

I bet you can't handle that. Go cry about your e-coins, pops.

[Willie Pep 229]

Dr. Z


This is simply to see if we are capable of discussing this honestly.

Do you acknowledge that Jack Johnson agreed to put up the title against Joe Jeannette in 1912?

Hi!

I got a weird question for you . . . Was this to be a championship fight ?

It has some very strange wording: "Champion will be Jeannett's Opponent"

It almost as if the fight is being billed as a "Jeanette" showcase/exhibition.

Also there is no mention of the championship being on the line.

But on the other hand the expected numbers certainly suggest a HW Championship fight.

Of course this was August 1912 which means they were not going to let him fight anymore anyway; he was on his way out of the country he just didn't know it yet.

Also the Sims Act was passed just two weeks earlier so there would be no film revenues but they likely hadn't wrapped their heads around that yet.

[Dr. Z]

Dr. Z


This is simply to see if we are capable of discussing this honestly.

Do you acknowledge that Jack Johnson agreed to put up the title against Joe Jeannette in 1912?

I had it right the first time. You're a fan boy. All these contracts and always an excuse, even when Johnson signed for it. Langford example.

Here's what I acknowledge, Johnson had numerous offers to fight Jeanette. Even if he did want to go through with a fight with Jeannette, his history of backing out towers over one signature ( 1912 ) that you come with. ( The article says nothing about Jeannette's take ) You know it, I know it and most of all you know that I know it. If I need to post some of them and ask you why it didn't' happen the excuse of the fight was on a Tuesday hasn't been used yet.

I gave you Jeannette quote and its damming. " When Jack became champion he forgot his old friends, and drew the color line against his own people "

You are simply using a headline to justify numerous ducks by Johnson. I saw the headline. Sometimes Dempsey fans use the famous signing of Wills fight, which of course the NY Site commission voted against 2-1.

What was Jeannette getting for this offer? I think you should post that, if you know. The article says nothing about that.

Why didn't this fight happen, and why could it not be moved to France or Australia where other offers where bigger in the press for Johnson to fight? Why?

At this point I have to ask, where do you think Johnson rates, head to head. The way your a defending him, I can only imagine.

I can come up with lots of headlines here for Johnson on fights he should have taken that never happened and play your game. I'll have many more article on my side, if that's your game. Also I can quote Johnson's manager.

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Joe_Jeanette

After Johnson became the first African-American Heavyweight Champion of the World on December 26, 1908, he never again fought Jeanette, despite numerous challenges. Johnson's refusal to fight African-Americans offended the African-American community. Jeanette criticized Johnson, saying, "Jack forgot about his old friends after he became champion and drew the color line against his own people."

[Dr. Z]

Hi!

I got a weird question for you . . . Was this to be a championship fight ?

It has some very strange wording: "Champion will be Jeannett's Opponent"

It almost as if the fight is being billed as a "Jeanette" showcase/exhibition.

Also there is no mention of the championship being on the line.

But on the other hand the expected numbers certainly suggest a HW Championship fight.

Of course this was August 1912 which means they were not going to let him fight anymore anyway; he was on his way out of the country he just didn't know it yet.

Also the Sims Act was passed just two weeks earlier so there would be no film revenues but they likely hadn't wrapped their heads around that yet.

Willie has good questions and good points. If you won't listen to my facts, try his.

You might have to pivot and fast forward many years. As old men Johnson did do an exhibition with Jeannette for World War One bonds. One of the few good things Johnson did. That one can be seen on film. There's not much boxing value, and of course his title was long gone, but it was good too see anyway.

As for Johnson's " Colored Title " he did lose a fight via DQ ( Low blow ) to Jeannette but somehow kept his title. That's BS. So it seems Joe was shafted in more ways than one.

[Dr. Z]

I acknowledge Travestyny is a registered, thoroughbred halfwit.

He seems to know something, admission of facts does not seem to be a strong suit.

Since he says he located in Queens, my advice to him, and for a serious boxing fan its golden if go to Brooklyn and check out what Hank Kaplan donated to the Brooklyn library. No spoilers, but he just might learn a thing or two about Johnson, that is if he takes the good with the bad.

Kaplan a few years back was probably the best living historian of the game. What was his in garage, stacked in shoe boxes was pretty amazing.