Jack Johnson vs Fireman Flynn. Did you know

[Dr. Z]

Ok, you wrote a lot, filled with lots of bravado, embellishments, and all out lies.

Nothing you've said here was convincing, and we both know it. That's clearly why you are so upset.

Listen. I like Sam Langford just as much as I like Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette. I'm not defending Jack Johnson. I'm defending the evidence that is out there about what factually happened. As such, I don't have a concern about how good you think he was, which I've explained to you over and over. What do I care if you think he wasn't very good? You are welcome to your opinion.

But when we talk about what factually happened in his career, you can't make up your own narrative, refuse to prove anything you say, and then cry about it.

So how about this. You've been ducking what I say a whole lot. You claim that I've ducked your questions. Ok. Let's go question for question. Quid pro quo. You ask a question, I answer it until it's answered satisfactorily, and then I have my chance to ask a question. We'll get to the bottom of the matter that way.

What do you think? You in?


And by the way, your long post didn't even answer the simple question from the guy you were responding to. You gave a great example of your MO during our conversation.

All these offers an no fights with the best. Why? ( Please answer what ever single offer wasn't good enough ) Like I said, and you'll never answer it.

Why couldn't Johnson fight Langford, Jeannette or Mcvey in France? (Please answer ) The French wanted it. Offers where there. Johnson wasn't.

Instead Jack settled for match in vs Jim Battling Johnson, escapes with a draw, and surely would have made more vs Langford or Jeanette. I posted the review of the fight, Jack seemed to hurt his arm in the fall in the 10th round. Reports says he was groggy and close to going out. The heavyweight champion of the world, nearly stopped by a man with a Journeyman's record? Yes--it happened.

When you consider who floored or beat Johnson, it's obvious why he didn't want to risk his title vs prime versions of Langford Jeanette and Mcvey. I do not know why you can't see it.

AND NO, one signing doesn't absolve his blame from numerous offers where he didn't. Move the fight! And oh Johnson signed before to meet Langford. Guess what, he hacked out of it, I showed you point blank on post #26.

The French stripped Johnson of his title for his blatant " duckery " They stopped him because he would not fight the best.

A champion is mainly defined based on who he defended his title against. Of the famous tendered heavyweight, Johnson probably rates last. Didn't have to be that way.


PS: To act like you for a bit, I want to see the 1912 contract? Produce a photo of it, and do let me know what was in it for Jeanette. Thanks.

[travestyny]

How did I end up being one of the "you guys" I never said he was lying about whether he believed it was a championship fight - not now or earlier. The issue with him is that he has a strong vested interest and if what we want is to assess public attitude towards the fight, he is not a stand alone source.

But all this is kind of irrelevant to my point, as you point out above there was no way to stage a legal (with a decision) fight in New York.

So at some level it had to be presented as an exhibition but I believe it would have been a "fight" and had certain white people (like half the nation) hadn't stopped it Johnson would have fought Jeannette in 1912. No duck.

Does O'Neil ever use the "C" word?

lol. I wasn't so much coming at you, but it did seem like you were insinuating that Jeannette's manager would lie about it being a championship match. I just can't imagine any circumstance where he would accept a match that wasn't for the championship for Joe. The dude wanted it so bad that he tried to just declare Joe the champ. lol

But that's a good question regarding O'Neil. No idea! What was the other city that used to not allow decisions. I think it was Philly... but I can't remember if it was before this time in NY or after.

[travestyny]

All these offers an no fights with the best. Why? ( Please answer what ever single offer wasn't good enough ) Like I said, and you'll never answer it.

I've answered this and I can answer this very easily.

An offer of $4000 win and $2000 lose is certainly not good enough. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. lol

You also didn't mention anything about his offer for a 6 round bout that Langford ran away from. You guys were so sure that was on Johnson. So what are you going to say now? Langford ducked Johnson? Let's hear it! lol

Why couldn't Johnson fight Langford, Jeannette or Mcvey in France? (Please answer ) The French wanted it. Offers where there. Johnson wasn't.

Now you'r cheating. It's quid pro quo. You ask ONE question and I answer, and then I ask a question.

But since you've already asked, I'll continue to answer.

What were the offers for Johnson to fight them in France. You have to show them for us to see what they were all about. He already stated that if they weren't for the amount he wanted, which was around $30,000, he'd go get his money elsewhere.

Instead Jack settled for match in vs Jim Battling Johnson, escapes with a draw, and surely would have made more vs Langford or Jeanette. I posted the review of the fight, Jack seemed to hurt his arm in the fall in the 10th round. Reports says he was groggy and close to going out. The heavyweight champion of the world, nearly stopped by a man with a Journeyman's record? Yes--it happened.

Again, why does this matter? I don't know why you keep harping on this. The fight was a money grab before the main reason he was in France, which was to fight Moran. He claims he hurt his arm in the 3rd...I think? I've seen reports he initially hurt it in a wrestling match and it broke due to a punch early in the fight. Some say maybe he hurt it in the fall.

Who really cares? It's not important to our conversation.

When you consider who floored or beat Johnson, it's obvious why he didn't want to risk his title vs prime versions of Langford Jeanette and Mcvey. I do not know why you can't see it.

I can't see it because as I've already mentioned, and you half arsed agreed to, he agreed to fight all of these guys. Right?

AND NO, one signing doesn't absolve his blame from numerous offers where he didn't. Move the fight! And oh Johnson signed before to meet Langford. Guess what, he hacked out of it, I showed you point blank on post #26.

No, you didn't. You showed nothing about the 1909 bout. You continue to duck it. The fight was set for May. Again, where is the May 1909 contract? You don't have it. You therefore have no proof of any contract signed by JJ for that bout. I don't know why I have to say the same thing over and over. You just duck and dodge repeatedly.

The French stripped Johnson of his title for his blatant " duckery " They stopped him because he would not fight the best.

Then maybe they should have gave him the money he wanted.

A champion is mainly defined based on who he defended his title against. Of the famous tendered heavyweight, Johnson probably rates last. Didn't have to be that way.

That's your opinion. I'm certain others disagree with you.

PS: To act like you for a bit, I want to see the 1912 contract? Produce a photo of it, and do let me know what was in it for Jeanette. Thanks.

What you keep bringing up is a contract signed by JJohnson FOR FEBRUARY. That was the proof given by the London promoters, but it's already clear that the fight was to be in MAY. Are you still not understanding this? There was never any mention of a May contract. You can't produce ANYTHING that even says he signed a contract for May. Even in the book you told me to look into, what do they show? THE FEBRUARY contract. It has NO MENTION of May. I don't know how many other ways to say it.

It's no problem for me to prove that Johnson and Jeannette signed. I already showed you JOE JEANNETTE'S MANAGER AGREEING THAT THE FIGHT WAS MADE AND THE COMMISSION PULLING THE FIGHT.

What do you think that means? That there was never a contract and the commission and Joe Jeannette and manager are lying???

Let me make this clear, because I know your style and I know you'll come back with the same bullshlt.

If no contract was signed by Jeannette and Johnson, what was it that the commission pulled the plug on? Was it a fake fight they pulled the plug on? Does that make sense to you?


Come on, man. You're trying hard but it's so easy for me to chop through your bs.



Can I ask my question now?

[billeau2]

All you have to do is comment on the topic with anything that makes sense.

I bet you can't handle that. Go cry about your e-coins, pops.

[HOUDINI563]

On the Historic films website you can find pretty much the entire Johnson Flynn bout. I posted it last year. Every single round was one sided in Johnson’s favor. There was no indication that Flynn was doing anything aside from getting a typical Johnson beat down.

The only fighter that was fouling was Flynn and these fouls were flagrant. Flynn was complaining of holding but the referee stated after the bout Johnson was not holding. Flynn could punch freely at all times. Indeed this was true. Flynn was landing body blows but Johnson, as typical, took away leverage and power by tapping and pushing Flynn’s arms/elbows.

Completely one sided bout.

[QueensburyRules]

On the Historic films website you can find pretty much the entire Johnson Flynn bout. I posted it last year. Every single round was one sided in Johnson’s favor. There was no indication that Flynn was doing anything aside from getting a typical Johnson beat down.

The only fighter that was fouling was Flynn and these fouls were flagrant. Flynn was complaining of holding but the referee stated after the bout Johnson was not holding. Flynn could punch freely at all times. Indeed this was true. Flynn was landing body blows but Johnson, as typical, took away leverage and power by tapping and pushing Flynn’s arms/elbows.

Completely one sided bout.

- -Maybe You should watch the fight!

Flynn landing a half dozen upper butts to JJ chin while JJ has him locked up.

Pitiful, and no, I could care less about watching such slop. When JJ had a chance to whoop Hart to force a Jeffries fight, he didn't show up. That fouling why JJ DQed vs JJeanette. That enabled Jeff to retire in peace knowing he came, he saw, he won all to retire in peace.

[Dr. Z]

Ok, you wrote a lot, filled with lots of bravado, embellishments, and all out lies.

Nothing you've said here was convincing, and we both know it. That's clearly why you are so upset.

Listen. I like Sam Langford just as much as I like Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette. I'm not defending Jack Johnson. I'm defending the evidence that is out there about what factually happened. As such, I don't have a concern about how good you think he was, which I've explained to you over and over. What do I care if you think he wasn't very good? You are welcome to your opinion.

But when we talk about what factually happened in his career, you can't make up your own narrative, refuse to prove anything you say, and then cry about it.

So how about this. You've been ducking what I say a whole lot. You claim that I've ducked your questions. Ok. Let's go question for question. Quid pro quo. You ask a question, I answer it until it's answered satisfactorily, and then I have my chance to ask a question. We'll get to the bottom of the matter that way.

What do you think? You in?


And by the way, your long post didn't even answer the simple question from the guy you were responding to. You gave a great example of your MO during our conversation.

No Championship fight with Langford

No Championship fight with Jeanette

No Championship fight with McVey

No offer to Gunboat Smith

No championship fight with McCarty.

No re-match with O'Brien or Jim Johnson, who drew with him.

Oh Johnson meet Willard all right, and he was KO'd and lied about a fix. Who buys Johnson being honest? His integrity sucks, and backing out a fight with Langford proves it. As you see those in the business including his manager call him dishonest.

All from 1909-March 1915. The money offers were there. Several of them. So how come none of it happened?


And you say lies? How about FACTS. Like I said before you cant dismiss all offers as someone else's fault, and like I said which you ignore at all costs, there are multiple venues for the fight.

[travestyny]

No Championship fight with Langford

No Championship fight with Jeanette

No Championship fight with McVey

No offer to Gunboat Smith

No championship fight with McCarty.

No re-match with O'Brien or Jim Johnson, who drew with him.

Oh Johnson meet Willard all right, and he was KO'd and lied about a fix. Who buys Johnson being honest? His integrity sucks, and backing out a fight with Langford proves it. As you see those in the business including his manager call him dishonest.

All from 1909-March 1915. The money offers were there. Several of them. So how come none of it happened?


And you say lies? How about FACTS. Like I said before you cant dismiss all offers as someone else's fault, and like I said which you ignore at all costs, there are multiple venues for the fight.

What is wrong with you?


Why are you quoting me again when we already had a talk where I asked you to agree that to make the convo easier to follow we could go question for question....

You never agreed but returned with a whole boatload of questions, I answered them, and asked if I can ask my question now...and you completely ducked that to write this here.

Make up your mind. Do you want to discuss, or do you want to duck? If you want to discuss, you should be ready to finally stop ducking my questions.

You're acting like you're scared. What are you afraid of? Are you ready to go question for question or are you going to continue to duck?


Oh, by the way. I've only seen ONE offer posted. And it wasn't even posted by you. You've actually added very little here. It was posted by GhostofForgery in his thread. And guess what....turns out Langford ducked the match. I showed you that but you are just going to pretend you didn't see it, right?

Again, let me know if you agree to stop ducking my questions and then I'll post one to you. Once you answer, I'll answer any ONE question from you. And so forth. I'm looking forward to it! You down?