Who Was the First Truly "Modern" Boxer

[billeau2]

I'm trying to up my knowledge of older fighters, but I find things very difficult as I see many glaring inefficiencies in their techniques. Especially things like their stance, punching mechanics, and footwork. And that's even with some of the greats, like Joe Louis, SRR, and Ali. Ali had very sloppy mechanics at times.

The one who always impressed me, however, was George Foreman. Always was impressed by his form, his beautiful mechanics, and the long sharp and very polished jab. He's in my opinion the first boxer who I can say had a modern style that would still hold up today.

Who would you say was the first to have a truly modern style in your opinion?

First of all Green K, Great topic!

I believe that the answer to your question would depend on what epoche you are referring to. Marchgiano has mentioned fighters like Daniel Espenoza, the Shephardem *** as a modern fighter for the times, I would add jem mace, to this list. What they did was reframe the fight as being about tactics, countering, finding a way to win using skill and not brute force, and these guys fought pretty much after figg.

When we get to the point where fighters were using sword distance, stepping into the gap to attack, footwork was very good... But Jack Johnson was in a league by himself. He is the first fighter I saw use a jab... Most guys used a front lead, no pronation of the wrist on the punch... Johnson scientifically approached grappling, and could do many other things.

Then we get Dempsey. Dempsey wrote, and developed the art of punching. Dempsey took critiscism that had been levelled for years stating that fighters often were not trained to hit hard. He made explicit the mechanics of using body weight and good form (his punches were always described as short, untelegraphed), and showed that one need not fight off the back leg, but could slip punches close range using headand shoulder movements.

Blackburn eventually made Louis, who introduced a more energy efficient method of setting up punches.

These are the modern innovators.

Many of the guys you mentioned were great fighters, but just... great, not necessarily modern, in the sense of inovating the sport with new ideas. Robinson could just do everything...Ali ditto... etc.

[billeau2]

I've never actually looked explicitly or tried to pin down an era, but, I think the 70s. As much as Marciano did things not seen since before Edison invented capturing video Ali did things that were developed over the gloved period. I'd appreciate a schooling tbh, but as I know it:

I can't give credit to guys like Gene Tunney no matter how great they were because things like the shuffle and rope-a-dope had not been displayed yet in boxing. What's Tunney know about a half orthodox half southpaw stance? Walcott named it his Sucka punch and ever since boxers have used shoulder movement more.

Again, never looked explicitly but I'm pretty sure Ali borrows the following:

Corkscrew - McCoy

Sucka - Walcott

Shuffle - Walcott

Rope-a-Dope - LaStarza (would gladly accept another pioneer of catching punches on elbows while using the ropes to absorb energy but never heard of them)

And I'm sure more but that's enough and all I know.

That's just four, but, it's four we see today. Four that must be there to be a modern boxer. Guys use the ropes all the time where prior it wasn't very often and there was no technique centered around it. Shuffle? Everyone who wants to show a little flair does a shuffle. Pretty sure even Wilder and Fury have done shuffles and ain't neither of them actually got the feet for it. Everyone shuffles today, before no one shuffled. Oh and them shoulders, boy-o, is there really a RJJ or Toney or really anyone modern with great set up who doesn't use their shoulders?

What is Tommy Morrison, Mike Tyson or David Tua without Marciano's phantom overhead? Renamed Mike Tyson's Homerun?

I think dudes from the 20s-50s really pioneered moderned boxing techniques then the 60s normalized them and the 70s perfected them.

To me it's just one of those aspects that makes the golden era golden.

I love how we interpret the OP's request the same way. Tunney is one of my favorite fighters and was fantastic BUT I didn't mention him because he took innovations and applied them, he did not develop them in my opinion.

I would revise my post and mention Kid Mccoy because "the corkscrew" was perhaps the first pronated punch in boxing. It would be followed by the jab, which replaced the lead.

And I am feeling good that people are mentioning Tunney! I have my inclinations and have been inclined to talk up the fighting Marine because he was so damn good!

[billeau2]

Corbett was fairly modern while still maintaining some of the old bareknuckle style.

Corbett is an interesting choice, and makes sense. He fought in the bareknuckle methods but actually fought virtually all his fights gloved.

[JAB5239]

I'm surprised there is no love for Benny Leonard. Amazing fighter who did it all and looked great doing it.

[KingHippo]

First of all Green K, Great topic!

I believe that the answer to your question would depend on what epoche you are referring to. Marchgiano has mentioned fighters like Daniel Espenoza, the Shephardem *** as a modern fighter for the times, I would add jem mace, to this list. What they did was reframe the fight as being about tactics, countering, finding a way to win using skill and not brute force, and these guys fought pretty much after figg.

When we get to the point where fighters were using sword distance, stepping into the gap to attack, footwork was very good... But Jack Johnson was in a league by himself. He is the first fighter I saw use a jab... Most guys used a front lead, no pronation of the wrist on the punch... Johnson scientifically approached grappling, and could do many other things.

Then we get Dempsey. Dempsey wrote, and developed the art of punching. Dempsey took critiscism that had been levelled for years stating that fighters often were not trained to hit hard. He made explicit the mechanics of using body weight and good form (his punches were always described as short, untelegraphed), and showed that one need not fight off the back leg, but could slip punches close range using headand shoulder movements.

Blackburn eventually made Louis, who introduced a more energy efficient method of setting up punches.

These are the modern innovators.

Many of the guys you mentioned were great fighters, but just... great, not necessarily modern, in the sense of inovating the sport with new ideas. Robinson could just do everything...Ali ditto... etc.

I will give all of these a look, thanks a lot Billeau, really appreciate your knowledge.

Looking a Gene Tunney clips as we speak, and I have to say that I'm impressed. Thanks to all of you, going to have a lot of fun with this over the weekend.

[KingHippo]

There is nothing antiquated or sloppy about Jersey Joe Walcott. I think a lot of modern fighters would love to have his footwork, timing, head movement, and distance control. He was so very slick.

Looking at this fight, and I'm not impressed by his footwork. I find it flat, tentative, and I don't see any pivoting. Back movement is in a straight line, always. Jab is also unacceptable by today's standard. Fast forward at 6:15 for reference.



I also invite you to look at the footwork of Dmitry Pirog in that fight. Look at how precise it is. The razor sharp pivoting and lateral movement. Also pay attention to the beautiful shift on the KO around the 24:00 mark.

[Rockin']

Sugar Ray Robinson............Rockin'

[KingHippo]

I've never actually looked explicitly or tried to pin down an era, but, I think the 70s. As much as Marciano did things not seen since before Edison invented capturing video Ali did things that were developed over the gloved period. I'd appreciate a schooling tbh, but as I know it:

I can't give credit to guys like Gene Tunney no matter how great they were because things like the shuffle and rope-a-dope had not been displayed yet in boxing. What's Tunney know about a half orthodox half southpaw stance? Walcott named it his Sucka punch and ever since boxers have used shoulder movement more.

Again, never looked explicitly but I'm pretty sure Ali borrows the following:

Corkscrew - McCoy

Sucka - Walcott

Shuffle - Walcott

Rope-a-Dope - LaStarza (would gladly accept another pioneer of catching punches on elbows while using the ropes to absorb energy but never heard of them)

And I'm sure more but that's enough and all I know.

That's just four, but, it's four we see today. Four that must be there to be a modern boxer. Guys use the ropes all the time where prior it wasn't very often and there was no technique centered around it. Shuffle? Everyone who wants to show a little flair does a shuffle. Pretty sure even Wilder and Fury have done shuffles and ain't neither of them actually got the feet for it. Everyone shuffles today, before no one shuffled. Oh and them shoulders, boy-o, is there really a RJJ or Toney or really anyone modern with great set up who doesn't use their shoulders?

What is Tommy Morrison, Mike Tyson or David Tua without Marciano's phantom overhead? Renamed Mike Tyson's Homerun?

I think dudes from the 20s-50s really pioneered moderned boxing techniques then the 60s normalized them and the 70s perfected them.

To me it's just one of those aspects that makes the golden era golden.

That was beautiful, thank you. I will give those a look.

[The Old LefHook]

Sugar Ray Robinson............Rockin'

What, you were only bant from FaceBook once?

[Rockin']

What, you were only bant from FaceBook once?

Bant for life. Or until 230 is altered............Rockin'