Lomachenko In The Firmament Of All Time

[Rusty Tromboni]

A kid... He lost to a kid.

Do you know how old Turpin was when he beat Robinson?


How about Artie Levine, when Robinson was gifted a long count?



You don't see fighters that bad fighting for titles today... no wonder Robinson got stopped by Joey Maxim.

[Anthony342]

Why do people bring up past prime losses on here and use them against a fighter, like Robinson losing to Maxim? Even Ali losing to Holmes was mentioned on here recently. What the hell is this crap? A fighter's legacy is about who they beat in their prime and when they beat them. That's why fighters like Robinson and Ali are so highly regarded. I guess by that logic then, we should crap on the end of Michael Jordan's basketball career with the Washington Wizards or when Willie Mays was playing for the Mets?

Or I guess Ken Shamrock is now a bum and no longer one of the MMA pioneers along with Royce Gracie because he ended his career losing to Tito Ortiz after 40, Kimbo Slice, Gracie again, along with a bunch of nobodies.

Uh, news flash. It's not about what someone does at the end of their career when they're past prime and then shot. It's about what they do in their prime, when they're at their best. Robinson and Ali beat the best of their eras, Robinson doing it in 2 weight classes. Maxim was post prime. And funny how Robinson haters conveniently leave out the part that he later came back to win the middleweight title 3 more times and defend it once after fighting Maxim. Oh yeah and the Maxim fight? Only time Robinson ever lost by stoppage. And people wanna denigrate him here. GTFOH with that noise. Next time do your research. Otherwise, know your role and shut your mouth!

[QueensburyRules]

- -Refresh-

Somewhere back before Manny KOed the Oscar who whooped Pretty TUE Floyd who ducked in the middle of promotions of that rematch that Manny substituted on short notice, several writers camped in a Vegas phone bank for the free toll largest international public opinion poll in history, maybe 300k votes.

Results-

P4P 1 SRRobby, 2 Manny, 3 Ali

Middlewt 1 Robby, featherwt 1 Manny, Hvywt 1 Ali.

Pretty TUE Floydy for contrast was #3 Lightwt his only mention.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Why do people bring up past prime losses on here and use them against a fighter, like Robinson losing to Maxim? Even Ali losing to Holmes was mentioned on here recently. What the hell is this crap? A fighter's legacy is about who they beat in their prime and when they beat them. That's why fighters like Robinson and Ali are so highly regarded. I guess by that logic then, we should crap on the end of Michael Jordan's basketball career with the Washington Wizards or when Willie Mays was playing for the Mets?

Or I guess Ken Shamrock is now a bum and no longer one of the MMA pioneers along with Royce Gracie because he ended his career losing to Tito Ortiz after 40, Kimbo Slice, Gracie again, along with a bunch of nobodies.

Uh, news flash. It's not about what someone does at the end of their career when they're past prime and then shot. It's about what they do in their prime, when they're at their best. Robinson and Ali beat the best of their eras, Robinson doing it in 2 weight classes. Maxim was post prime. And funny how Robinson haters conveniently leave out the part that he later came back to win the middleweight title 3 more times and defend it once after fighting Maxim. Oh yeah and the Maxim fight? Only time Robinson ever lost by stoppage. And people wanna denigrate him here. GTFOH with that noise. Next time do your research. Otherwise, know your role and shut your mouth!

This is why Boxing has lost it's esteem among the general public. It's not the brutality of the sport, it's the idiocy of the fans.

Here we are on a history subforum and this clown who's di'cked around here for years doesn't even know basic facts. ***** still pushes the common (exposed) narrative?

You wanna run your mouth? OK. I wonder how much you'll like using your mouth after I make you put on lipstick.

Simple question, clown, how old was Robinson when he fought Maxim?

Thirty one! He was 31! He was entering his physical prime. He had just put on one of his finest career performances in avenging his loss to Turpin. And he wouldn't properly retire for another decade.

Maxim, for his part was the same age, 30, and had about as much mileage.

If anything, it was Maxim who was washed up, as his career was about to take a nosedive.


Now that you said something ****** and can't take it back, don't give me no tangents, no whining, just a simple answer - I answered the last one for you (I am too nice, I know):

When did Robinson ever look better than the night he lost to Maxim? Show me a single fight where he looked better than he did that night! Just one! You talk about all the wonderful years that were behind him, it should be easy for you to offer up a single occasion. So let's have it!


And when exactly did Robinson pass his prime? Was he past his prime at 25, when he was almost KO'd by the young club fighter, Artie Levine, and got a gift decision against Georgie Abrams?

Should I assume Mickey Walker only lost to Max Schmeling, Tommy Loughran and Harry Greb because he was past his prime?

Was Leonard past his prime when he lost to Duran?

Was Foreman past his prime when he lost to Ali?

Your avatar is Marciano - what ATG did he faced whose best years hadn't preceded him!?!?

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Refresh-

Somewhere back before Manny KOed the Oscar who whooped Pretty TUE Floyd who ducked in the middle of promotions of that rematch that Manny substituted on short notice, several writers camped in a Vegas phone bank for the free toll largest international public opinion poll in history, maybe 300k votes.

Results-

P4P 1 SRRobby, 2 Manny, 3 Ali

Middlewt 1 Robby, featherwt 1 Manny, Hvywt 1 Ali.

Pretty TUE Floydy for contrast was #3 Lightwt his only mention.

Makes sense. They write about the characters people want to read about. They're basically reporting which fighters' story sells best.

They're not historians, and even those who pretend to be are usually just embracing a profitable pre-fab narrative. Hence the popularity of The Black Murderers' Row, and Boxing's Black pioneers, often at the expense of their White contemporaries.

[Willie Pep 229]

A better performance by Loma against a very dangerous opponent than Pep's against a guy nicknamed "the anvil".

You guys DO realize fighters lose right? Often it happens when fighting bigger men, more familiar with your style than you are with theirs.[

TRUE! -- more so because Lopez (and team) targeted Loma and spent two years preparing Teofimo to beat him.

I am not sure what you meant by the 'the anvil' remark with Pep, but Willie Pep once complained that Saddler was groomed and prepared for the sole purpose of beating him (maybe it was sour g****s, maybe it was just that.)

No doubt Lopez was bigger and his people targeted Loma because of his size, but on the other side of it, you have to give the kid credit he did his part, he stepped up and beat a great fighter.

[billeau2]

So you're going to pretend you don't like the abuse?

No not at all... it confirms you have been managed. Sexually? I prefer to be abused by psychologically strong women. I grew up with assertive women in East Harlem, heck my baby sitters were all gorgeous, Adriena was Hungarian and taught me how to box lol... never experienced a dainty gal lol.

Over the years had plenty of submissive Asian women, and other types, but chose a Cajun women from Louisiana... Cajuns are French Puerto Rican's Rusty! She has kept me in line now for almost 30 years! I tell people mess with me? don't make me make you hurt me! Mess with Lisa? better have a will signed and ready to go. 125 pounds soaking wet, still has a flat belly, and pretty much the same body as when she was stripping.

I know I know, sorry for the digression.

[billeau2]

Lopez is 23. Hardly a kid.


I know you don't know much about Boxing, despite basically living here. But a majority of great fighters actually accomplished most of their greatness by their mid 20's, and some would see their careers dim by 23.

Obviously fighters are brought along slower today, but Lopez was well seasoned in the Ammies.

Being a relative novice actually worked in Lopez's favor. Everyone expected to play to a specific script, and he didn't. He actually showed composure and depth that hadn't been previewed in his limited 15 fight career.

And again, this was a big Lightweight fighting a natural Featherweight. Age isn't particualry signficant when there's a real disparity in size.

Would you be shocked if Lomachenko were KO'd by an 19 year old Tyson?

I mean, not YOU specifically, all sorts of crazy sh'it goes through your head, but a normal functioning man would never even think to make that fight, Loma's doom would be so obvious. Unless of course you could teach him some secret, centuries-old ninjitsu death touch techniques... how's about it?

No I do not know much about boxing... compared to some who have graced this section... Ray Corso, hascup... But compared to you? I am Einstein and Bohr. You are not even Galileo who could only sometimes make an actual prediction regarding the moons of Jupiter.

These days 23 is a kid. In boxing's golden age when a fighter took up the craft as a youngster things were different. You don't really understand that when there is a fighting weight, even with rehydration, ect, guys are basically a similar size, with the exception of the heavy weight division...

You exxagerate things that are relevant but not to the degree you suggest.

Loma is limited. I think the world of the ammies, love the cuban fighters particularly... But the training is very one dimensional when compared to professional prize fighting. Loma is limited, and has a weakness with big, physical fighters... That makes him beatable, not great. You cite Robinson's losses, forgetting how many times he won... Streaks of over 100 wins at a time. You then prop up fighters like Rigo, who, while talented, has a similar limited background due to the ammies...

[billeau2]

This is why Boxing has lost it's esteem among the general public. It's not the brutality of the sport, it's the idiocy of the fans.

Here we are on a history subforum and this clown who's di'cked around here for years doesn't even know basic facts. ***** still pushes the common (exposed) narrative?

You wanna run your mouth? OK. I wonder how much you'll like using your mouth after I make you put on lipstick.

Simple question, clown, how old was Robinson when he fought Maxim?

Thirty one! He was 31! He was entering his physical prime. He had just put on one of his finest career performances in avenging his loss to Turpin. And he wouldn't properly retire for another decade.

Maxim, for his part was the same age, 30, and had about as much mileage.

If anything, it was Maxim who was washed up, as his career was about to take a nosedive.


Now that you said something ****** and can't take it back, don't give me no tangents, no whining, just a simple answer - I answered the last one for you (I am too nice, I know):

When did Robinson ever look better than the night he lost to Maxim? Show me a single fight where he looked better than he did that night! Just one! You talk about all the wonderful years that were behind him, it should be easy for you to offer up a single occasion. So let's have it!


And when exactly did Robinson pass his prime? Was he past his prime at 25, when he was almost KO'd by the young club fighter, Artie Levine, and got a gift decision against Georgie Abrams?

Should I assume Mickey Walker only lost to Max Schmeling, Tommy Loughran and Harry Greb because he was past his prime?

Was Leonard past his prime when he lost to Duran?

Was Foreman past his prime when he lost to Ali?

Your avatar is Marciano - what ATG did he faced whose best years hadn't preceded him!?!?

Robinson had fought for years when he fought Maxim. It could indeed be argued that he was in his twilight. its not all about age, it is also about wear and tear, divisions fought in, etc. Why do you think robinson was coming up to light heavy? No, it was not just to win another division title... He was past making weight in a premier division... Light heavy was never the talent that the Welters had. Anthony is correct, Robinson was indeed slowing down.

did you think you had something Pookie? No... And the BS about when robinson ever looked better, put that back in your a ss where it belongs, it is nonsense. As far as when Robinson passed his prime, that is actually a debatable question. Most people think Robinson was at his best at his lightest, some think otherwise... NOBODY thinks he was going to be a lightheavy juggernaught! its like floyd... he was great at 130-135.


See you don't look at things like weight carefully and make assumptions big mouth. Many people would agree that when Robinson tried to jump up, he was in his twilight. Stop cherry picking fights with Robinson... it does not work. He fought so much that it makes you look even more like a dolt.

[billeau2]

TRUE! -- more so because Lopez (and team) targeted Loma and spent two years preparing Teofimo to beat him.

I am not sure what you meant by the 'the anvil' remark with Pep, but Willie Pep once complained that Saddler was groomed and prepared for the sole purpose of beating him (maybe it was sour g****s, maybe it was just that.)

No doubt Lopez was bigger and his people targeted Loma because of his size, but on the other side of it, you have to give the kid credit he did his part, he stepped up and beat a great fighter.

Stop reinforcing notions that Rusty has pulled out of his rear. The size disparity is such that they must weigh a similar weight... A great fighter should be able to deal with this quality. it only becomes significant in the heavyweights because it is an open division.

You train to defeat your opponent. thats boxing. So now we are going to excuse Loma because his opponent prepared for him? heres a fact that Rusty is blissfully ignorant of when he tries to sell this turd as Foe Gras: The ammy style utilized by Loma and Olexander Utz has no answer for angles, sophisticated footwork like cutting the ring off, upper body movements, etc... It is a style predicated on moving straight back and fourth, throwing a lot of accurate punches, and trying to move off the line as fast as possible. In fact, comparing the ammy orthodoxy to professional prize fighting is like comparing a fencing match, to a duel.

A fencer only moves back and fourth and develops fast hands... a dueling sword style works on angles, cutting from 360 degrees, footwork, etc. This makes Loma and Usk LIMITED! Proof: Watch Usk almost get s hitcanned by a slow and cumbersome Chisora as he moves straight back. Usk had no concept of angling to avoid the blow, of pivoting in and around, of countering the blow... Usk has the ability to move fast off a straight line, and to throw punches in bunches as he gets his timing right... Loma, with a little more because of his father, is still very limited.