Who would you say impacated boxing more Dempsey or Jack Johnson?

[joseph5620]

It's clear to me what happened. His trainer said he wrapped his hands the same way he wrapped Kid McCoy's hands. It's not a coincidence that an article long before this fight exposed what Kid McCoy's wraps were like, and tell the SAME EXACT TALE. And mind you, the trainer mentioned what he did IN DEFENSE OF DEMPSEY.

So unless they planted this years before just to hate on Demp

If it makes GhostofForgery cry, then even better

San Francisco Call, Volume 107, Number 117, 27 March 1910 -- TRICKS OF THE TRADE OF PRIZE FIGHTERS

The best response to this information was given by Willie Pep, and I respect him tremendously for it:

Seems pretty clear to me what kind of wraps Dempsey used and it obviously gave him an advantage.

[travestyny]

Seems pretty clear to me what kind of wraps Dempsey used and it obviously gave him an advantage.

It aint even hard to tell at this point. I've shared a ton of sources to back it up, including straight from the mouth of the very guy who wrapped Dempsey's hands. But you know how it is with GhostofForgery. By far one of the worst posters here if not the single worst.

[joseph5620]

It aint even hard to tell at this point. I've shared a ton of sources to back it up, including straight from the mouth of the very guy who wrapped Dempsey's hands. But you know how it is with GhostofForgery. By far one of the worst posters here if not the single worst.

He's in the bottom three at the very least. But I don't expect much from a poster who once claimed Golovkin had a better career than Pernell Whitaker.

[edgarg]

- -Sam Langford was making more $ as the more popular fighter of the people.

I get Ketchal and Philly Obrien, but not Kaufman and the like. Facts are he didn't really make much until Jeffries, at which point he seemed to retire until Willard in Cuba.

He lived in Paris where Sam and Joe Jeanette made major stopovers for big $

Sam McVeigh and Joe Jeanette made the BIG DOLLARS amount of $6,000 between them for the Coloured Title, in Paris, and paid all their own expenses.. , Some of you fellows don't pay enough attention to that period. In the US, there was literally NO interest in watching 2 Black fighters, unless they were going to literally kill one another. Not for the top prize in Boxing. They always had to make the fights long ones, so that the customers got "value for their money", or else they wouldn't come.

Johnson was all about 2 things. Pride, judging by the way he lived, and rubbed white noses in it, and MONEY. He NEEDED money more than anything else. He wanted and lived a high style, part of his Pride. He pioneered taking and selling movies of fights, and tried to have all his fights filmed, because of the profits. The US Govt. still seething because it was a black man who won the title and thumbed his nose a everyone, forbade filming of some of the fights and confiscated others.

As for Sam Langford, there wasn't enough money in it for Johnson to fight him. People came to see a white boxer beat him. Besides, when he fought Langford for the coloured title, admittedly 30 odd lbs heavier, he almost killed him even though he was taking it easy.. He held him up several times to prevent him from going down, wanting him to finish the fight, even talking to him. He KD'd him 3 times. He did the same with Ketchell, it was a common practice for him. He played games in the ring, talked to spectators all the time, because he knew he was unbeatable and could do anything. He held the Coloured World Title for about 6-7 years made 17 defences, (nobody else made more than 3, except Harry Wills-25 ) and gave it up when he beat Tommy Burns. He fought many black fighters multiple times'The best, Sam McVeigh 3 times and Joe Jeanette 7-8 times. He was afraid of nobody.

PS. Tony GE says there were race riots when he won the title, (and more when he beat Jeffries). There were about 20 people killed in those riots, and multi millions of property destroyed . Something like the *** stuff today in the ********ic ruled states ..

[edgarg]

Hard to quantify some things. Johnson was not a trailblazer by choice, rather he wanted to do as he pleased... And this attitude obfiscates some of what he did manage to accomplish as a Black man in the Sport.

Dempsey was the first mega star in boxing. The 1920's being the age of the superstar (Ruth another one).

So socially they both were big... Technique wise Johnson used a jab along with a lead, and was technically able to do many other such things... dempsey wrote the tome on boxing that preceded the modern approach.

I've read that Benny Leonard was the first superstar. Of course the Heavyweight title was THE Title.

[edgarg]

I thought I just did throw Dempsey under the bus!

I don't believe the loaded gloves story; I do believe the involvement with prostitution.

Johnson wasn't a "poor" performer, I said he repeatedly appeared unprepared and disinterested for his performances. The French crowd, after giving ample opportunity to step up, got tired of being fleeced by a con artist who wasn't trying. There is a difference.

He fought 2-3 times in Paris, once with a fractured bone in his right arm, so fought one handed. It went to a draw, and the spectators rioted and wanted their money back. His opponent was Jim Johnson, not the best of the bunch, but he was the first -and only- black man to get a chance at Johnson's title. Johnson wasn't trying and used the excuse of his broken arm. I've read the reports of that fight, but over 50 years ago, years ago so I made be a little out here and there. I think it was RING article about old fights. .

[travestyny]

He's in the bottom three at the very least. But I don't expect much from a poster who once claimed Golovkin had a better career than Pernell Whitaker.

Did he say that???? I'm not surprised, and i'm sure you know why!

[QueensburyRules]

Seems pretty clear to me what kind of wraps Dempsey used and it obviously gave him an advantage.

- -Wraps have always enhanced fighters punching abilities, hence in the trade they are called "the cast," same as a medical cast sans plaster.

There were no wrapping rules in Dempsey day, but there were a gentlemans agreement that wraps and gloves could be inspected by the opposing camp, in this case Willard himself.

Only fly in the ointment is modern candied pantywaists with attention span and bipolar manic disorders leaving them with half brained cogitation function.

Insert Usual Suspects here: Enjoy!

[travestyny]

There were no wrapping rules in Dempsey day, but there were a gentlemans agreement that wraps and gloves could be inspected by the opposing camp, in this case Willard himself.

If only "gentleman" Dempsey would have agreed with Gentleman Willard.

“The rules of the Boxing Commission in Toledo specified soft bandages. Willard declared that he planned to use plain cotton bandages with a couple of layers of surgical tape to hold the bandages in place. “That’s all I care to use, and I think Dempsey should feel the same way about it."

https://books.google.com/books?id=gWIqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=Willard+declared+that+he+planned+to+use+plain+cotton+bandages+with+a+couple+of+layers+of+surgical+tape+to+hold+the+bandages+in+place.&source=bl&ots=pU8vVM3nV3&sig=ACfU3U1lE-Hp1ZK4Yf8KgzJuBD32RixMag&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwivlISRofDrAhWudN8KHRx9B4YQ6AEwDXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Willard%20declared%20that%20he%20planned%20to%20use%20plain%20cotton%20bandages%20with%20a%20couple%20of%20layers%20of%20surgical%20tape%20to%20hold%20the%20bandages%20in%20place.&f=false

Either Willard's team dropped the ball by allowing it, or didn't know at all that the wraps would harden to cause "unusual punishment." Probably didn't know...hence why it's referred to as "a trick of the trade."

I know you're pretty slow, so here you go:

trick | trik |
noun
1 a cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.

[Willie Pep 229]

He fought 2-3 times in Paris, once with a fractured bone in his right arm, so fought one handed. It went to a draw, and the spectators rioted and wanted their money back. His opponent was Jim Johnson, not the best of the bunch, but he was the first -and only- black man to get a chance at Johnson's title. Johnson wasn't trying and used the excuse of his broken arm. I've read the reports of that fight, but over 50 years ago, years ago so I made be a little out here and there. I think it was RING article about old fights. .

It looks like he had two fights in France. I was not aware of the broken arm; interesting info.

I was referring to the Frank Moran fight in particular, that was the fight that took place after his Vaudeville act stunk out the place, because he wouldn't try. (I added and highlighted that part for T, not you.)

Re the broken arm, here is Boxrec's take on it:

One ringside report said that the spectators loudly protested that the men were not fighting and demanded their money back. Jack Johnson said he injured his left arm in the third round and could not use it, but ringsiders said he used his left often and likely fractured it when both fell to the mat in the tenth round. Post-fight examination revealed a slight fracture of the radial in his left arm.

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