Who would you say impacated boxing more Dempsey or Jack Johnson?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Jack Dempsey's reign had a greater impact on the sport itself than Johnson's.

The impact Johnson had primarily came outside the ring and in the United States. But Johnson's title fights took place when the sport itself was smaller. His fights took place in pastures where they'd set up a ring, or in fairly small venues, or in states where few people even lived because boxing was banned in many states. At most, there might be a couple thousand fans in attendance. Sometimes not even that many. The purses were much smaller. He made so few defenses because often he couldn't get people to pay him his minimum purse (which was like $30,000). By far, the biggest fight of his career - the biggest fight in the sport's history to that point - was against Jeffries. I believe 15,000 people attended. But that was an outlier.

Dempsey, on the other hand, became a global sports star. A film star. His fights set records for prize money. His fights set attendance records and live gates in major cities ... not pastures (the first Dempsey-Tunney fight drew 120,000 people. The second drew 104,000.) And he didn't make a lot of title defenses because he was making millions acting in movie serials. He also helped make boxing the number-one sport in the country, if not the world, in the 1920s.

The leap the sport took while Dempsey was heavyweight champ was enormous.

This.


it's remarkable we'ere even having this debate.

Dempsey is up there with Sullivan, Ali and Tyson for superstardom.

[GhostofDempsey]

Willie Pep is pretty accurate in his posts, and regularly supports his arguments with evidence. I didn't feel that he was comitting one way or the other in that post, just acknowledging that the claims had been made. I do appreciate you clearing the air.

Most of the clowns around here will, of course, continue to perpetuate those lies because they don't like White Champions. It's that simple.

My post wasn’t meant for Willie per se, he was responding to the troll and I figured I would summarize the ordeal. There was in-depth research conducted and reputable eye witness accounts to debunk any myths and allegations of loaded wraps or anything illegal taking place. The story started with plaster of Paris, when that was disproven, the story was Dempsey had a railroad spike in his glove, that too was disproven. Then, the story evolved to the troll insisting magic take with never heard of hardening properties was used to turn the wraps into fists of iron.

The troll started an e tire thread that backfired on him and now he started another one for attention. Any mention of Dempsey is like blood in the water for the troll. Even posters he was friends with told him he was trolling.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Jack still boiling up the rubes as he did back in his day...

Priceless!

[travestyny]

My post wasn’t meant for Willie per se, he was responding to the troll and I figured I would summarize the ordeal. There was in-depth research conducted and reputable eye witness accounts to debunk any myths and allegations of loaded wraps or anything illegal taking place. The story started with plaster of Paris, when that was disproven, the story was Dempsey had a railroad spike in his glove, that too was disproven. Then, the story evolved to the troll insisting magic take with never heard of hardening properties was used to turn the wraps into fists of iron.

The troll started an e tire thread that backfired on him and now he started another one for attention. Any mention of Dempsey is like blood in the water for the troll. Even posters he was friends with told him he was trolling.

Stop your lying, heifer.

His trainer said precisely what he did less than a year after the fight. Sorry it hurts your feelings.

Actually, not sorry.


And certainly not sure how it backfired on me. Backfired because people now know the truth? lol. Keep living in MendaCity.

[billeau2]

Did you not get enough attention in your original Deforrest thread? Still beating the same old drum huh? Billeau owned your ass in this one, surprised you can still sit without wincing in pain. We all know your agenda here. You're a troll and a sore loser. Keep "winning", LOL.

https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/s...forest&page=11

Billeau owned me? If you say so. What we do know is that you didn't! You wouldn't even show up.

I'm happy you linked to it, though. Everyone can see that nothing was debunked. You're just triggered because you can't handle that what he did is out in the open and plenty of respectable journalists and writers have acknowledged it....because they aren't butthurt fans like you are.

But feel free to show us where the ownage is. I can't spot it there. In fact, I see where one member here got ran out of the thread, one member acknowledge that what I said made sense, and you....never showed up because you had no defense.

Does it hurt your feelings? Well you can always try to prove it wrong. Too bad you won't get anywhere


By the way, I guess you missed Billeau's apology for the false accusation. You can read it right here if you'd like

here is what I learned about the Dempsey situation: What was call bicycle tape, is also cloth electric tape. Never could establish to my own rules of recollection what Dempsey actually had on his hands...

That was about it. I know it is not much lol.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Jack still boiling up the rubes as he did back in his day...

Priceless!

Yea, it is amazing that he can still build such controversy; that's should count as a vote for Dempsey (OP). LOL

[GhostofDempsey]

here is what I learned about the Dempsey situation: What was call bicycle tape, is also cloth electric tape. Never could establish to my own rules of recollection what Dempsey actually had on his hands...

That was about it. I know it is not much lol.

The bigger issue is Travesty’s obsession with Dempsey and his agenda to discredit him at all costs. To the point he has started or hijacked a dozen or more threads about him, all because of his e-beef with me that began when I first got on NSB. Travesty never heard of Dempsey or cared anything about him until I came along. It’s like I opened a portal to another dimension and allowed a dark, mischievous spirit to enter the history forum. He is mentally unstable and he even has a folder on his computer of screen shots he has taken of members posts dating back years, and folders of all of his anonymous or invalid sources he posts time and again. This is not normal behavior from a 40-something year old adult. This compulsion to be right and always have the last word at all costs, the childish taunts and straight up adolescent behavior he demonstrates on almost every single thread he participates in regardless of forum. He has been banned a couple of times for it and still hasn’t learned his lesson.

The Dempsey loaded wraps myth was laid to rest back in the 1960’s by dozens of sports writers, historians and people who were actually there, but my very presence on these forums has ruined Travesty’s life and consumed him. Of course he has running beefs with dozens of members on the site, he lives for it. You could say I robbed his soul if he ever had one to begin with. My apologies to the rest of this forum for leading that lost soul to this forum like the stalker that he is.

[billeau2]

The bigger issue is Travesty’s obsession with Dempsey and his agenda to discredit him at all costs. To the point he has started or hijacked a dozen or more threads about him, all because of his e-beef with me that began when I first got on NSB. Travesty never heard of Dempsey or cared anything about him until I came along. It’s like I opened a portal to another dimension and allowed a dark, mischievous spirit to enter the history forum. He is mentally unstable and he even has a folder on his computer of screen shots he has taken of members posts dating back years, and folders of all of his anonymous or invalid sources he posts time and again. This is not normal behavior from a 40-something year old adult. This compulsion to be right and always have the last word at all costs, the childish taunts and straight up adolescent behavior he demonstrates on almost every single thread he participates in regardless of forum. He has been banned a couple of times for it and still hasn’t learned his lesson.

The Dempsey loaded wraps myth was laid to rest back in the 1960’s by dozens of sports writers, historians and people who were actually there, but my very presence on these forums has ruined Travesty’s life and consumed him. Of course he has running beefs with dozens of members on the site, he lives for it. You could say I robbed his soul if he ever had one to begin with. My apologies to the rest of this forum for leading that lost soul to this forum like the stalker that he is.

I happen to be very fond of both of you. I get it... I have my own members that make me wonder if the human race is big enough for them and I lol.

[travestyny]

The bigger issue is Travesty’s obsession with Dempsey and his agenda to discredit him at all costs. To the point he has started or hijacked a dozen or more threads about him, all because of his e-beef with me that began when I first got on NSB. Travesty never heard of Dempsey or cared anything about him until I came along. It’s like I opened a portal to another dimension and allowed a dark, mischievous spirit to enter the history forum. He is mentally unstable and he even has a folder on his computer of screen shots he has taken of members posts dating back years, and folders of all of his anonymous or invalid sources he posts time and again. This is not normal behavior from a 40-something year old adult. This compulsion to be right and always have the last word at all costs, the childish taunts and straight up adolescent behavior he demonstrates on almost every single thread he participates in regardless of forum. He has been banned a couple of times for it and still hasn’t learned his lesson.

The Dempsey loaded wraps myth was laid to rest back in the 1960’s by dozens of sports writers, historians and people who were actually there, but my very presence on these forums has ruined Travesty’s life and consumed him. Of course he has running beefs with dozens of members on the site, he lives for it. You could say I robbed his soul if he ever had one to begin with. My apologies to the rest of this forum for leading that lost soul to this forum like the stalker that he is.

Keep dreaming. Just go to the thread with the letters I posted and ask yourself why Houdini never returned

You're just mad because I speak the truth. When I see lies here, like the ones coming from your butthurt ass, GhostofForgery, I like to correct it because this is the history section. This shlt had nothing to do with you but you got TRIGGERED didn't you? Yep, you sure did.

So who owns whose soul? Last I checked you had me on ignore. But you got triggered again


As for your historians, I'll tell you once again. Go tell these guys that.

Arthur Daley— Pulitzer Prize winner for reporting and commentary--outstanding coverage and commentary on the world of sports; The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association "Sportswriter of the Year.”

The mention of “aluminum pads” would seem to indicate that there must have been some su****ion even then of destructive foreign substances inside Dempsey's gloves. The discredited Kearns tells a discredited story with his plaster of paris. But the DeForest tale of “a certain kind of adhesive tape” sounds both plausible and logical.
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/09/s...the-times.html

Paul Beston—Author of The Boxing Kings: When American Heavyweights Ruled the Ring.

[All the evidence points to a more mundane explanation: Dempsey wore handwraps wound with a tightening adhesive, likened to bicycle tape—more than sufficient to make his hands feel like rocks. The tape was not illegal at the time, and the testimony of multiple parties suggests that Willard’s people made no objection to it.

https://www.paulbeston.com/blog/the-heavyweight-bookshelf-jack-dempsey

Paul Beston Again:

The punishment that Dempsey inflicted in Toledo—likely exaggerated as the years passed—can probably be explained by DeForest’s use of a hardening tape to wrap his hands. One observer compared it with bicycle tape, which would make Dempsey’s hands very hard indeed.

Were Dempsey’s gloves loaded in Toledo? Yes—but only in comparison with the softer wrappings that modern fighters wear. The foul-play accusations that surround the Willard fight make wonderful lore but poor history. These were different times.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=KBQqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=jack+dempsey+hard+adhesive+tape&source=bl&ots=wPE9FzZAsZ&sig=wBd6wPZBAPhuXhB7JJGufD2gR3E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwius9mg6OfZAhWCgrwKHZ2EBLsQ6AEIYDAM#v=onepage&q=jack%20dempsey%20hard%20adhesive%20tape&f=false

Carlos Acevedo—Boxing Writers Association of America/Intenational Boxing Research Organization.

For years, those who pooh-poohed the Railroad Spike Theory and the Plaster of Paris Plot have ignored two simple details.

The first is the fact that Dempsey did wear “loaded gloves.” As Al Spink pointed out in The Atlanta Constitution only months after Dempsey annihilated Willard:….So bandaging knuckles has become an art among the boxers, and the trickiest glove men are adepts in putting on the wraps so as to make the glove as hard as the old Roman cestus, with which the ancient gladiators often killed each other.” Jimmy Deforest explained how Dempsey had achieved such carnage in so short a time. Is it possible that Willard actually inspected Dempsey’s hands before the tape hardened?

https://thecruelestsport.com/2015/06/25/hard-times-the-mystery-of-the-jack-dempsey-jess-willard-fight/

Randy Warren Roberts — “Nearly 40 years later, Roberts’s biography remains the best book written about Jack Dempsey, and it’s not even close.”

Jimmy Deforest, who taped Dempsey's hands, admitted that he used a hard adhesive tape, but that was perfectly legal. Regardless of how hard the tape was during the fight, Dempsey was champion.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=skJjoQbhsX8C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=jack+dempsey+regardless+of+how+hard+the+tape+was&source=bl&ots=0r2Bo691e5&sig=mc7POJgNhMIsy6TibhkZxY6fzl0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinhsaF6-fZAhUJvLwKHe0AAsgQ6AEIOTAH#v=onepage&q=jack%20dempsey%20regardless%20of%20how%20hard%20the%20tape%20was&f=false

Stay triggered...but realize you can't win against the truth, son. You never will. And it kills you


Oh, but I will admit. It's a fun past time for me to consistently pull your skirt up. At least Houdini simply runs away. You tell lies and run away. Shame, shame, shame. Deep down you must know how many lies you've told here. You're a shlt poster, point blank period, and I'm only so happy to keep exposing you, GhostofForgery.

My final piece of advice to you: IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE TRUTH, STAY THE ***** OUT OF THE HISTORY SECTION. No room for liars like you here anyway. Thanks.

[travestyny]

here is what I learned about the Dempsey situation: What was call bicycle tape, is also cloth electric tape. Never could establish to my own rules of recollection what Dempsey actually had on his hands...

That was about it. I know it is not much lol.

It's clear to me what happened. His trainer said he wrapped his hands the same way he wrapped Kid McCoy's hands. It's not a coincidence that an article long before this fight exposed what Kid McCoy's wraps were like, and tell the SAME EXACT TALE. And mind you, the trainer mentioned what he did IN DEFENSE OF DEMPSEY.

So unless they planted this years before just to hate on Demp

If it makes GhostofForgery cry, then even better

San Francisco Call, Volume 107, Number 117, 27 March 1910 -- TRICKS OF THE TRADE OF PRIZE FIGHTERS

The best response to this information was given by Willie Pep, and I respect him tremendously for it:

Thank you for posting the letters.

In regards to the 'loaded gloves' theory . . .

I think this was s good discussion and you brought some very interesting sources to the table.

I am of the mind, now, that it's up to the individual to decide if they want to call it -- loaded gloves -- a trick -- or merely superior wrappings.

I always felt that Dempsey's wrappings gave him an advantage at some level, now I am convinced of that.

Whether or not that advantage should be called "cheating" is in my opinion, under the circumstances of 1919, still open to individual interpretation.

I would like to add, we here on this forum, now have a better understanding of the issue than 95% of the boxing community. Good job T.

P.S. I think I have a good idea of what De Forest was saying between the lines, regarding Harry Wills. I will, if you would like, give you my two cents as to what I think he was saying. It is not profound.