Johnson - Flynn most complete film of the fight

[Dubblechin]

- - Just about all them ol' films can be seen as specious without a film specialist study of the actual film.

Near as I can tell, no Holy Grail of the original Cooper/Ali film exists for public perusal. What we see are edited copies.

The entire Clay-Cooper 1 fight film exists. I have a copy. If you're looking for a version where there is a delay and Clay's glove is replaced, that never happened.

In fact, that famous story was entirely made up by Dundee.

I even have reports and articles printed immediately after the fight and there is no mention of a delay or a glove being replaced. Interviews with Clay and Dundee in their dressing room immediately after the fight are online and they never bring it up or are asked about it that night.

And that would've been huge news in the fight reports if it had actually happened.

Boxers and their people used to return to the States after fighting in Europe with all sorts of stories about what happened during their fights because US TV didn't televise most bouts from Europe - there was no international satellite feed of fights in 1963 - and most newspapers in the US didn't send local reporters to Europe to cover a boxing match, especially a non-title fight.

Ali was just getting involved in Nation of Islam at the time. They wanted him to dump Dundee. Dundee tried to prove his value by claiming he'd 'saved' Ali after he got dropped.

But it never happened. Hell, when Ali got something in his eye during the Liston fight, the Nation of Islam guys came up to Dundee threatening him during the round because they thought he'd done something to Ali.

Dundee didn't start publicly telling that story about replacing the glove until years later and it became part of boxing folklore.

Most fans in the States didn't even see footage (other than the knockdown and the fight being stopped on cuts) of the bout until the late 80s/early 90s. By then more than a quarter of a century had passed and everyone just assumed the "replacing the glove' story was true since it had been repeated so many times.

But it never happened.

[Willie Pep 229]

The entire Clay-Cooper 1 fight film exists. I have a copy. If you're looking for a version where there is a delay and Clay's glove is replaced, that never happened.

In fact, that famous story was entirely made up by Dundee.

I even have reports and articles printed immediately after the fight and there is no mention of a delay or a glove being replaced. Interviews with Clay and Dundee in their dressing room immediately after the fight are online and they never bring it up or are asked about it that night.

And that would've been huge news in the fight reports if it had actually happened.

Boxers and their people used to return to the States after fighting in Europe with all sorts of stories about what happened during their fights because US TV didn't televise most bouts from Europe - there was no international satellite feed of fights in 1963 - and most newspapers in the US didn't send local reporters to Europe to cover a boxing match, especially a non-title fight.

Ali was just getting involved in Nation of Islam at the time. They wanted him to dump Dundee. Dundee tried to prove his value by claiming he'd 'saved' Ali after he got dropped.

But it never happened. Hell, when Ali got something in his eye during the Liston fight, the Nation of Islam guys came up to Dundee threatening him during the round because they thought he'd done something to Ali.

Dundee didn't start publicly telling that story about replacing the glove until years later and it became part of boxing folklore.

Most fans in the States didn't even see footage (other than the knockdown and the fight being stopped on cuts) of the bout until the late 80s/early 90s. By then more than a quarter of a century had passed and everyone just assumed the "replacing the glove' story was true since it had been repeated so many times.

But it never happened.

I agree 100% with you conclusion both regarding film and Dundee.

I disagree with you assessment of Dundee's motivation to lie.

These 'hanger-ons' (trainers, cut men, promoters, managers) all want to inflate their value and don't need to be threatened to do it. As time moves forward their importance grows with each retelling. Secret tonics, loaded gloves, special insights, there is no exaggeration they won't dabble in.

Here's two more Dundee claims: Liston-Clay I

The infamous blinding --> Dundee claims he had to pull Ali off his stool, pushing him out there, telling him "This is for the championship baby."

What the film actually shows is Ali getting up on his own while Dundee is doing the usual 'seconds' thing, chasing the refree around the ring yelling.

Dundee then goes on with his story claiming he pulled the stool out of the ring fast because he was afraid would sit back then.

No! Ali walks away from the stool towards the center of the ring all on his own and the stool stays in place. It's not removed until after the bell rings.

There is on the Internet(s) a copy of the British Television broadcast of Cooper-Clay I (I don't know who made it available in Great Britsin but the announcers are British.) A poster on the Boxrec history forum made it available.

This version is continuous containing no commercial breaks. It shows that the referee's inspection of the glove extends the rest period by a max of eighteen seconds, (maybe even less,) nothing more.

As you say the glove isn't replaced; Dundee, as with most trainers, is a pretty bad historical source.

What version do you have? Does it have British announcers?

P. S. One can't confirm or deny the 'finger tip in the corner of the eye story' from watching the film. Dundee's back is to us, but I suspect that is crap too. I can't see the NOI being in a physical position to even verbally threaten Dundee never mind him proving anything to them admist all that chaos.

P.S.S. One thing is true, Ali doesn't react until Dundee wipes the wet sponge over Ali's face, washing whatever substance into Ali's eyes. It's then that Ali freaks out. So I can see why Dundee might be scared that the NOI might try to blame him. Maybe the whole threat thing happened during the next round.

[QueensburyRules]

The entire Clay-Cooper 1 fight film exists. I have a copy. If you're looking for a version where there is a delay and Clay's glove is replaced, that never happened.

In fact, that famous story was entirely made up by Dundee.

I even have reports and articles printed immediately after the fight and there is no mention of a delay or a glove being replaced. Interviews with Clay and Dundee in their dressing room immediately after the fight are online and they never bring it up or are asked about it that night.

And that would've been huge news in the fight reports if it had actually happened.

Boxers and their people used to return to the States after fighting in Europe with all sorts of stories about what happened during their fights because US TV didn't televise most bouts from Europe - there was no international satellite feed of fights in 1963 - and most newspapers in the US didn't send local reporters to Europe to cover a boxing match, especially a non-title fight.

Ali was just getting involved in Nation of Islam at the time. They wanted him to dump Dundee. Dundee tried to prove his value by claiming he'd 'saved' Ali after he got dropped.

But it never happened. Hell, when Ali got something in his eye during the Liston fight, the Nation of Islam guys came up to Dundee threatening him during the round because they thought he'd done something to Ali.

Dundee didn't start publicly telling that story about replacing the glove until years later and it became part of boxing folklore.

Most fans in the States didn't even see footage (other than the knockdown and the fight being stopped on cuts) of the bout until the late 80s/early 90s. By then more than a quarter of a century had passed and everyone just assumed the "replacing the glove' story was true since it had been repeated so many times.

But it never happened.

- - You would be seemingly the only person on the planet with a clear original unspliced tape.

A bank safety deposit box and going incognito are your best hopes of survival.

I'll take the testimony of video experts who claim every tape they've viewed has been spliced at the critical era, ie not a random but rather deliberate hatchet job.. A Beeb rep came on Cyber Boxing to confirm they no longer have the original, but that the audio indicates the rest time was extended 5-10 sec.

This would not be a controversy but for the testimony of Dundee, Cooper, and other participants and fans corroborating the torn glove and delayed search for a new pair of gloves.

[Ivich]

- - You would be seemingly the only person on the planet with a clear original unspliced tape.

A bank safety deposit box and going incognito are your best hopes of survival.

I'll take the testimony of video experts who claim every tape they've viewed has been spliced at the critical era, ie not a random but rather deliberate hatchet job.. A Beeb rep came on Cyber Boxing to confirm they no longer have the original, but that the audio indicates the rest time was extended 5-10 sec.

This would not be a controversy but for the testimony of Dundee, Cooper, and other participants and fans corroborating the torn glove and delayed search for a new pair of gloves.

The delay was a further 6 seconds which gave Coopers corner an extra 6 seconds to work on Coopers eye .the glove was not replaced.Ive seen the complete film it was shown on the BBCTV two nights later with a stopwatch on the screen between the crucial rounds..The glove had some stitching that had come loose around the thumb.Dundee in later years claimed to have," helped the damage worsen"
Cooper first of all said Ali got a further 2 minutes of extra time and that is patent nonsense, he then amended his statement to a minute . Cooper was in his corner having adrenalin sticks pushed into his cut eyebrow by his cut man Danny Holland he was the last person to know how much time elapsed.The unedited film is available and for anyone ****** enough to say and keep on saying, as you do the film was edited to omit the delay the obvious question would be.Why would the British TV edit a film of a British fighter and national treasure to the advantage of the visiting fighter and the disadvantage of the home fighter?
Its a moronic premise long ago disproved.

[QueensburyRules]

The delay was a further 6 seconds which gave Coopers corner an extra 6 seconds to work on Coopers eye .the glove was not replaced.Ive seen the complete film it was shown on the BBCTV two nights later with a stopwatch on the screen between the crucial rounds..The glove had some stitching that had come loose around the thumb.Dundee in later years claimed to have," helped the damage worsen"
Cooper first of all said Ali got a further 2 minutes of extra time and that is patent nonsense, he then amneded his statement to a minute . Cooper was in his corner having adrenalin sticks pushed into his cut eyebrow by his cut man Danny Holland he was the last person to know how much time elapsed.The unedited film is available and for anyone ****** enough to say and keep on saying, as you do the film was edited to omit the delay the obvious question would be.Why would the British TV edit a film of a British fighter and national treasure to the advantage of the visiting fighter and the disadvantage of the home fighter?
Its a moronic premise long ago disproved.

- - Sonny, do try to pay attention.

There is a long history of this story that is endemic to the much longer sordid history of boxing. I recalled what numerous videographers and a representative of the Beeb have enumerated, nothing more, nothing less.

I was not there and never pretended otherwise.

As to why the Brits would edit the fight of a national treasure:

1. Brits in love with lovable losers who were hardly national treasures in their moment.
2. I never once indicated Brits spliced the fight though it's possible.
3. Clay was administered illegal smelling salts, perhaps not witnessed by the referee dealing with the glove issue, a DQ offense.
4. Dundee statements generally mirror those of Cooper, two critical witnesses to the dispute.
5. Heh, heh...

[Marchegiano]

The entire Clay-Cooper 1 fight film exists. I have a copy. If you're looking for a version where there is a delay and Clay's glove is replaced, that never happened.

In fact, that famous story was entirely made up by Dundee.

I even have reports and articles printed immediately after the fight and there is no mention of a delay or a glove being replaced. Interviews with Clay and Dundee in their dressing room immediately after the fight are online and they never bring it up or are asked about it that night.

And that would've been huge news in the fight reports if it had actually happened.

Boxers and their people used to return to the States after fighting in Europe with all sorts of stories about what happened during their fights because US TV didn't televise most bouts from Europe - there was no international satellite feed of fights in 1963 - and most newspapers in the US didn't send local reporters to Europe to cover a boxing match, especially a non-title fight.

Ali was just getting involved in Nation of Islam at the time. They wanted him to dump Dundee. Dundee tried to prove his value by claiming he'd 'saved' Ali after he got dropped.

But it never happened. Hell, when Ali got something in his eye during the Liston fight, the Nation of Islam guys came up to Dundee threatening him during the round because they thought he'd done something to Ali.

Dundee didn't start publicly telling that story about replacing the glove until years later and it became part of boxing folklore.

Most fans in the States didn't even see footage (other than the knockdown and the fight being stopped on cuts) of the bout until the late 80s/early 90s. By then more than a quarter of a century had passed and everyone just assumed the "replacing the glove' story was true since it had been repeated so many times.

But it never happened.

I'm not skeptically questioning whether you do or don't when I ask, but I have to ask. How does one obtain copies of full fights that no one else seems to have? Is there a shop I can go to or something of the sort?

[billeau2]

I'm not skeptically questioning whether you do or don't when I ask, but I have to ask. How does one obtain copies of full fights that no one else seems to have? Is there a shop I can go to or something of the sort?

Sign me up for one Grebb versus Tunney with the special sauce!

[Ivich]

- - Sonny, do try to pay attention.

There is a long history of this story that is endemic to the much longer sordid history of boxing. I recalled what numerous videographers and a representative of the Beeb have enumerated, nothing more, nothing less.

I was not there and never pretended otherwise.

As to why the Brits would edit the fight of a national treasure:

1. Brits in love with lovable losers who were hardly national treasures in their moment.
2. I never once indicated Brits spliced the fight though it's possible.
3. Clay was administered illegal smelling salts, perhaps not witnessed by the referee dealing with the glove issue, a DQ offense.
4. Dundee statements generally mirror those of Cooper, two critical witnesses to the dispute.
5. Heh, heh...

You talk ****.Ive seen the complete fight and I listened to the fight live on the radio,you keep repeating disproven myths, its what your good at,in fact its the only thing you're good at!

[QueensburyRules]

You talk ****.Ive seen the complete fight and I listened to the fight live on the radio,you keep repeating disproven myths, its what your good at,in fact its the only thing you're good at!

- - Ain't a myth that the controversy exists to this very day.

What grade you regress to today?

[Ivich]

- - Ain't a myth that the controversy exists to this very day.

What grade you regress to today?

No, it only exists in your tiny mind it was solved decades ago!

Muhammad Ali - Henry Cooper I & II : The Left Hook That Almost Changed History - YouTube