Johnson - Flynn most complete film of the fight

[Ivich]

Throwing cheap shots during the clinch is kinda common, still wrong but kind of common. Hitting off the break as Wills did with Firpo is dirty fighting.

If I had been the referee I would have warned JJ about holding a few times and if he was still doing it by the 5th round (as he was) I would DQ him.

Taking away a man's title on a DQ is always a difficult thing to do. In fact I am not sure if it has ever happened in the HW ranks.

What bothered me about watching Johnson (and Ali) was that he were controlling the pacing of the fight, breaking the rules to advantage.

But I am also su****ious that the film has been edited and JJ's best moments have been removed. At least I am su****ious of this.

Testimonials?
"Johnson had no trouble outpointing the white hope. Moran was aggressive and game ,but unable to land many effective blows.
It was a hard fought battle but Johnson won easily on points.

The game Moran was stubborn ,stood up to the champ,did most of the leading and made many friends.

However Johnson's superior skill and effective uppercuts wore down his opponent and won the match.

Moran was not able to block the terrific uppercuts.They were sent on the jaw when Moran least expected them,and several times with such force that Moran was sent wobbling.However there were no knockdowns or finishing blows.

At the finish Moran was cut on the nose and under and over the left eye.Johnson was unmarked."

"Moran took his punishment well.During parts of rounds Johnson toyed with him when he saw he could do so with no danger to himself."

"Toward the end Johnson had the Pittsburgher absolutely at his mercy.

Moran apparently feared that he would be finished,and clung to Johnson for support,trying at the same time to land ,but without success.

His manner of fighting and holding and in the latter part of the fight caused some unfavourable comment."

Ringside report from The New York Herald.
" Johnson was in as good acondition as a man his age can be expected to be in,but 10 rounds was as far as he could go well.

Moran's condition was as expected ,but his skils were not on par
.
As a boxer Moran was absolutely outclassed.

Moran did not deliver more than a score of really effective blows throughout the entire fight.

While Johnson landed possibly a dozen in each round."

"In the 11 th round Carpentier warned Johnson against striking in the clinches after the word break
It only occurred once through inadvertence,and it was not in the least degree serious.
Throughout the fight there was no disposition towards foul play.
In one of the amusing clinches,Moran beat a tattoo on Johnson's stomach.

Johnson simply laughed outright,as he used to do in training,while his sparring partners pounded on him at his request."

William Brady Manager of Jim Corbett and Jim Jeffries

[Dr. Z]

- - Been around the block too many times to imagine a growed man much less a top fighter would be hollerin' about squeezed biceps.

That's what girls used to do to me when showing their interest, a compliment.

It's in addition to the clinching and hitting & holding.

[Dr. Z]

Testimonials?
"Johnson had no trouble outpointing the white hope. Moran was aggressive and game ,but unable to land many effective blows.
It was a hard fought battle but Johnson won easily on points.

The game Moran was stubborn ,stood up to the champ,did most of the leading and made many friends.

However Johnson's superior skill and effective uppercuts wore down his opponent and won the match.

Moran was not able to block the terrific uppercuts.They were sent on the jaw when Moran least expected them,and several times with such force that Moran was sent wobbling.However there were no knockdowns or finishing blows.

At the finish Moran was cut on the nose and under and over the left eye.Johnson was unmarked."

"Moran took his punishment well.During parts of rounds Johnson toyed with him when he saw he could do so with no danger to himself."

"Toward the end Johnson had the Pittsburgher absolutely at his mercy.

Moran apparently feared that he would be finished,and clung to Johnson for support,trying at the same time to land ,but without success.

His manner of fighting and holding and in the latter part of the fight caused some unfavourable comment."

Ringside report from The New York Herald.
" Johnson was in as good acondition as a man his age can be expected to be in,but 10 rounds was as far as he could go well.

Moran's condition was as expected ,but his skils were not on par
.
As a boxer Moran was absolutely outclassed.

Moran did not deliver more than a score of really effective blows throughout the entire fight.

While Johnson landed possibly a dozen in each round."

"In the 11 th round Carpentier warned Johnson against striking in the clinches after the word break
It only occurred once through inadvertence,and it was not in the least degree serious.
Throughout the fight there was no disposition towards foul play.
In one of the amusing clinches,Moran beat a tattoo on Johnson's stomach.

Johnson simply laughed outright,as he used to do in training,while his sparring partners pounded on him at his request."

William Brady Manager of Jim Corbett and Jim Jeffries

Neither did Johnson land much. I don't see much here, Moran was the better on the outside, and Johnson the better on the inside. Watch round 14 ( I think ) where Johnson clearly hit Moran on the break, and he turns his back ready to quit! Foul play. It wasn't a punch in the clinch, it was hitting in the break. Watch this space....someone is lying. Care to dispute that.

Better yet, let's score the rounds shown. Oh that's right, you don't watch the film.

By the way Johnson wasn't sure if he could go 20 rounds and said so to the press.

[Dr. Z]

"In the 11 th round Carpentier warned Johnson against striking in the clinches after the word break
It only occurred once through inadvertence,and it was not in the least degree serious.
Throughout the fight there was no disposition towards foul play.
In one of the amusing clinches,Moran beat a tattoo on Johnson's stomach.

Johnson simply laughed outright,as he used to do in training,while his sparring partners pounded on him at his request."

William Brady Manager of Jim Corbett and Jim Jeffries

Only 1 waring? Lol. The ref was in Johnson pocket.

His manner of fighting and holding several times in the latter part of the contest was the cause of unfavourable comment, as were also the tactics of Johnson, who was several times cautioned by the referee and jeered at by the crowd.

[Dr. Z]

Jack Johnson vs Frank Moran.

Box rec Data:

Johnson, age 36. 40-5-8

Moran, age 21-6-2 , pretty much losing to the best he fought ( McCarty, GunBoat Smith, Kubiak, Ross ). and stopped three times vs no-names

Judging by the minutes of footage in rounds 1, 5, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 19 and 20 how close was it?

The film is pretty clear considering its over 100 years old.

There is commentary as well and you can see which round they are as shown. You'll also see the punch landed where Johnson mocked Moran, and the foul with Johnson hitting on the break that almost made Moran, who was not paid a dime for this fight quit.

News read:

"Thus Moran was considered a meaningless pushover when Jack Johnson announced him to be the next man to get a shot at the title. Johnson, convicted of a federal morals crime, had fled the U.S. and was now living a glutton's life in Paris, France, where Moran traveled to meet him for the contest. Most regarded Johnson's lack of enthusiasm for training and fighting as being the real reason for his selection of the challenger, and not any accomplishments on the part of Frank. On June 27, 1914, at the Velodrome d'Hiver in Paris, Moran gave it his best effort. The overweight and unprepared champion was sluggish, which allowed openings for "Mary Ann" on several occasions. It was a shoving, punching, wrestling, and fouling match fought at close quarters in the center of the ring. The challenger surprised many by winning several rounds. Meanwhile, the champion retaliated with fouls Frank by repeatedly punching on the breaks. As the fight drew into the closing rounds, rumors circulated through the arena that the title was about to change hands. When the fight ended, however, referee Georges Carpentier, himself a "White Hope" contender, awarded his decision to Johnson, who could consider himself lucky to have stayed on his feet for the full twenty rounds."

[HOUDINI563]

Throwing cheap shots during the clinch is kinda common, still wrong but kind of common. Hitting off the break as Wills did with Firpo is dirty fighting.

If I had been the referee I would have warned JJ about holding a few times and if he was still doing it by the 5th round (as he was) I would DQ him.

Taking away a man's title on a DQ is always a difficult thing to do. In fact I am not sure if it has ever happened in the HW ranks.

What bothered me about watching Johnson (and Ali) was that he were controlling the pacing of the fight, breaking the rules to advantage.

But I am also su****ious that the film has been edited and JJ's best moments have been removed. At least I am su****ious of this.

Johnson was not holding predominantly. I posted earlier this year eye witness testimony where the writer accurately points out that Flynn was free to punch at all times. Johnson was catching Flynn’s arms with his open gloves. Fleischer also wrote about Johnson’s ability to parry and block punches on the inside. This is what Johnson’s style was all about. He would have no issue stepping inside against fighters whose game was inside fighting. They could do nothing to him and were beaten to a pulp at the same time. I don’t see any swarmer beating prime Johnson. He shut that style opponent down.

[HOUDINI563]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n31590467]Jack Johnson vs Frank Moran.

Box rec Data:

Johnson, age 36. 40-5-8

Moran, age 21-6-2 , pretty much losing to the best he fought ( McCarty, GunBoat Smith, Kubiak, Ross ). and stopped three times vs no-names

Judging by the minutes of footage in rounds 1, 5, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 19 and 20 how close was it?

The film is pretty clear considering its over 100 years old.

There is commentary as well and you can see which round they are as shown. You'll also see the punch landed where Johnson mocked Moran, and the foul with Johnson hitting on the break that almost made Moran, who was not paid a dime for this fight quit.

News read:

"Thus Moran was considered a meaningless pushover when Jack Johnson announced him to be the next man to get a shot at the title. Johnson, convicted of a federal morals crime, had fled the U.S. and was now living a glutton's life in Paris, France, where Moran traveled to meet him for the contest. Most regarded Johnson's lack of enthusiasm for training and fighting as being the real reason for his selection of the challenger, and not any accomplishments on the part of Frank. On June 27, 1914, at the Velodrome d'Hiver in Paris, Moran gave it his best effort. The overweight and unprepared champion was sluggish, which allowed openings for "Mary Ann" on several occasions. It was a shoving, punching, wrestling, and fouling match fought at close quarters in the center of the ring. The challenger surprised many by winning several rounds. Meanwhile, the champion retaliated with fouls Frank by repeatedly punching on the breaks. As the fight drew into the closing rounds, rumors circulated through the arena that the title was about to change hands. When the fight ended, however, referee Georges Carpentier, himself a "White Hope" contender, awarded his decision to Johnson, who could consider himself lucky to have stayed on his feet for the full twenty rounds."

Complete bull****. You cherry pick one nondescript source???? Most every eye witness testimony called this fight totally one sided. Why lie?

[HOUDINI563]

• The St. Petersburg Daily Times reported the following on June 28, 1914:
• "The battle was hard fought, but Johnson won easily. Moran was game and stubborn and did most of the leading. Johnson's superior skill was effective and his upper-cutting wore Moran down and won the contest. . . . There were no knockdowns, or anything resembling a finishing blow in the fight. At the close Moran's face was bleeding from a cut under the nose and left eye. Johnson showed no marks."
  
  
  "When the fight took place, before a fashionable audience at the Vélodrome d'Hiver, McKetrick saw he had been terribly mistaken about Moran's chances. It was true that Johnson was not in first-rate condition, but his superlative defense held up, and he was able to evade the dreaded Mary Ann and give Moran a severe beating without the full use of his left arm. Johnson had a rather preoccupied air, for he had heard rumors of writs and lawyers and knew but too well that this always meant trouble. And, as he feared, he was told after the fight that French police had grabbed the money and taken it away."
  Johnson was 221.5lbs and 36 years old.He did well to go 20rds and never be in any trouble whilst in such poor shape.

[HOUDINI563]

"I've got no kick coming.The black completely surprised me.Everybody led me to believe all I had to do was to last ten or fifteen and I'd be sure to win solely on the bad condition and age of the negro.But Johnson's defence was so good, in the nineteenth round as well as the first , and when the twentieth round came I was too much all in to be able to notice ."

Frank Moran interviewed by the New York American June 29th 1914.

Two days after the fight.


The New York Sun. "It was not a fight,it was not even a near fight Moran showed absolutely nothing.Johnson was never extended".

The New York Times." In the final round Johnson stood in the center of the ring.Moran circled about Johnson,and called out, "Come on hit me!"Then the referee forced him to fight and amid screams from the crowd Johnson landed a left uppercut and the fight was finished as Moran went reeling against the ropes" .

[HOUDINI563]

Rd1.Even
Rd2.Johnson
Rd3.Johnson
Rd4.Johnson
Rd 5.Moran
Rd.6.Even
Rd7.Moran
Rd8.Johnson
Rd9.Johnson
Rd10.Johnson
Rd11.Johnson
Rd12.Johnson
Rd.13Even
Rd14.Johnson
Rd15.Even
Rd16.Johnson
Rd17.Moran
Rd18.Even
Rd19.Even
Rd20.Johnson

11-3-6 for Johnson.

Sources,Le Petit Parisiene, La Presse,The Mirror Of Life,The Herald,BoxingWorld.


Next day reports.
"Johnson easily beat Moran on points "" Max Hogmanay," Le Petit Parisiene".
"Johnson beat Moran in an amicable fight." Danile Cousin" La Presse".
" Johnson had a bad fight but kept his title " L'Humanite".
"The match was nothing for Johnson ,but he pretended for an excellent laugh and some fun.He enjoyed moving to the side with a huge smile eluding blows wile Moran hit him in the body ,Johnson smiled". " Le Matin".
"From the 1srd to the 5th round Moran only landed seven efective blows.From rounds 6 to 15th he landed 6 hits to the face.From the 16th to the 20th Moran did not lqnd anything"
" Johnson had no trouble outpointing the white Hope.Moran was aggressive and game but unable to land many effective blows,it was ahrd fought battle but Johnson won it easily on points" Ringside report from ,"The New York Herald".
"In the 11th round Carpentier warned Johnson against striking in the clinches after the word break,it only happened once and through inadvertence" .In one of the amusing clinches Moran beat a tattoo on Johnson' s stomach.Johnson simply laughed outright".
William Rocap the official timekeeper,scored it for Johnson giving 2 of the 20 rounds 2 to Moran with 6 even.
"At no time during the bout did a Moran victory seem feasible."C F Bertelli the Paris correspondent for, " The New York American" Johnson's left arm,the one had fractured in his previous fight ,went back on him around the half way mark.
All in all it seems to have been rather a dreary fight with an overweight , aging champion,retaining enough ring science to stave off a willing ,young and strong,but limited challenger who couldn't bridge the gap in class.