Better resume: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jack Dempsey?

[them_apples]

With times being so different it's sometimes difficult to compare guys so highly respected and far removed from one another. Then you throw the weight divisional differences in there and it's so many apples vs oranges its really just an exercise for fun...not to be too invested in.

That said, let me try to be different without being ******:


Often in history sections we tend to lean toward the classic character over the history-in-the-making guys and arguments about the '(d)evolution' of boxing tend to focus more on the applied physics of fighters than things like atmosphere or culture. These are okay arguments, but, to be honest, kind of pedestrian. Boxers are products of their times and so it's better to take traits and apply time based techniques to those traits in a given era. IE. it's ****** to think Marciano in 2020 would be a HW let alone box like he did in the 50s.



In the past I've written about how I do not feel like any color line drawing champion can be considered a true world champion because an entire race did not have access to their title.

Similar to that, I believe more modern figures have more claim to world championships.

I want to be clear, this isn't a moral argument. It seems to me I'm pretty much the only person who was ever disappointed by the lack of world in our world champions, but that's really what this boils down to.

In the beginning to be a "world" champion you had to unify the English and American titles. There are a few there at the tail end of LPRR if memory serves. I know Jem Mace did it, but I think someone else did. There were other national titles pretty early. Ireland is in the game before the US, likewise for Italy, and shortly after the US had begun boxing so had Australia and Canada. None of these title made you a world champion though.

You could combine Canada, Australia, Ireland, and Italy under one man, not a world champion. Definitely not a world champion if someone else has the US-ENG combo

Anyway, later you didn't need the English title. Not a lot of people ever talk about it but John L didn't actually beat the English champion. He drew the English champion and that was good enough then.

Then the American age happened. White America owned the title and really you can say "but Burns-n-Fitz doe" but we both know that's a weak argument. They are foreigners who won the American dominated circuit not guys honored from home for whooping the world.

When I was a little guy I believed Ali when he said " I'm the HW champion of the world, do you know what that means? That means i'm the baddest man on the planet. I'm the champion in American, Europe, Russia, China, Africa, anywhere in the the world. " I believed him.

Really until the later 90s there's always something making the old champions less world and more regional champions. Nationalism first, then racism, then economic wars, then finally global boxing is truly born.

Dempsey fought 3 fights that were not against Americans. World champion? Or, US Whites champion?

Floyd Mayweather fought 27 fights that were not against Americans.
He really did give the world an ass kicking.

Something is amiss when **** like skills, resume, and other time-based and culture based issues are used to justify a guy who never fought anyone but American whites as the same kind of "world" champion as a man who literally fought anyone, any race, religion, or nationality.


That said, Floyd fought more champions, former champions, and future champions and Canelo is already better than Sharkey's flash-in-the-pan ass.

You make some good points, but the fact that theres 4 titles in a weight class and twice as many weight classes tells me those guys shouldn't all be champions. I do suspect Dempsey probably didn't fight enough black fighters, but I also tend to think a great man back in the day was probably tougher and more impressive than a great man of today. Meaning, when he got in the ring - he came to win. Simply because of the way he was brought up and the times he lived in. I just can't see a depression era great for example, get one hit wondered by some gym built - cellphone watching kid who parents never beat him, especially when people in my own hometown have gone the distance with them.

people always downplay history as if it was some 5 year window, and today is some super detailed vivid special moment in history. These guys lived their entire lives like everyone else, had relationships, problems etc - the entire culture was different. Everything about being a man in Dempseys era was don't be a ***** and lifes hard. Everything was manual. You walked everywhere, you did everything physicial. Your mother never coddled you, you took care of yourself. If you got bullied you had no shoulder to cry on. So Jack Dempsey, standing out as an exceptionally tough man in that era - says something.

The other big thing, is television has made fighters more image concious. They are always trying to look "cool" in how they move. Robinson started it all. You can see the earth wind and Fire in Ken Norton, the James Brown in Ali. The 50 cent in Mayweather. In Dempseys era, it was "do whatever it takes to win". Work hard, learn tricks, be a man. Now its, sculpt your physique so you look good, make sure everythings clean so you don't look off balance and keep looking sexy. Thats cool and all, but fighting is an animals game.

People will ask who wins, Joe Louis or Tyson? but the question is, who would you pick back in 1936? Joe Louis was THE man. People are victims of their opinions of things, not things themselves. When Joe Louis stepped in the ring, he came to win.

[The Old LefHook]

How can a man who fought so many exhibition bouts be compared to Dempsey? MW was the Meadowlark Lemon of boxing, who playt high school all stars in small town gyms. His great trick was he got people to believe they were really fights because they took place in big venues. He was a better illusionist than Davey Copperfielt.

[QueensburyRules]

Just to continue with the theme of the month.

We seem to have come to the conclusion that Jack Sharkey was the best fighter Dempsey beat.

Did Floyd have any wins against a more impressive fighter than Sharkey?

- -Leading question presupposing Sharkey was best.

Willard was the champ and most morons know comparison of welter to heavy toopid.

[them_apples]

How can a man who fought so many exhibition bouts be compared to Dempsey? MW was the Meadowlark Lemon of boxing, who playt high school all stars in small town gyms. His great trick was he got people to believe they were really fights because they took place in big venues. He was a better illusionist than Davey Copperfielt.

**** thats a good point. I even questioned sometimes if it was in the fighters benefit to even beat him, once he lost the draw would have been severely efected. You wanted to lose a competitive fight like Maidana did so you got the rematch.

Half his opponents seemed like they barely tried.

There was simply no way the big names in boxing wanted Floyd to lose, considering the draw he was. You can bet every single thread available for rigging was in full use.

he certainly played his cards right when it came to a successful career though. Thats the game you had to play in boxing and he played it well.

[JAB5239]

**** thats a good point. I even questioned sometimes if it was in the fighters benefit to even beat him, once he lost the draw would have been severely efected. You wanted to lose a competitive fight like Maidana did so you got the rematch.

Half his opponents seemed like they barely tried.

There was simply no way the big names in boxing wanted Floyd to lose, considering the draw he was. You can bet every single thread available for rigging was in full use.

he certainly played his cards right when it came to a successful career though. Thats the game you had to play in boxing and he played it well.

Floyd wasn't a draw until after the DeLaHoya fight. In fact, he wasn't even liked much until than except by his hardcore fans. There was at least one opportunity for him to lose before he became the draw he became, yet he didn't. By your logic, unless these so called big names in boxing could see the future he should or could have lost the first Castillo fight. Did he not lose it because he was a draw?

[ShoulderRoll]

How can a man who fought so many exhibition bouts be compared to Dempsey? MW was the Meadowlark Lemon of boxing, who playt high school all stars in small town gyms. His great trick was he got people to believe they were really fights because they took place in big venues. He was a better illusionist than Davey Copperfielt.

Did you ever answer the question? Who was the best win on Dempsey's resume?

[QueensburyRules]

75% to 25%.

Pretty clear majority in this poll.

- -History ain't an elective process.

Jess Willard has a better win than any 3 of TBE TUE orchestrated victories combined.

Oh to see U JoyBoy go 26 Havana outdoor rounds in 6 oz gloves sans hand injections and TUEs...splotto city squallin' fer his crack daddy!

[ShoulderRoll]

- -History ain't an elective process.

Jess Willard has a better win than any 3 of TBE TUE orchestrated victories combined.

Oh to see U JoyBoy go 26 Havana outdoor rounds in 6 oz gloves sans hand injections and TUEs...splotto city squallin' fer his crack daddy!

History isn't to be determined by people with petty biases either.

[QueensburyRules]

History isn't to be determined by people with petty biases either.

- -Truth is U opened up a can of worms.

Walked outta his biggest payday during Oscar rematch promos saying he was a billionaire now and weren't working for Oscar/HBO slave wages to retire. Came crawling back like the sniveling worm most know him to be for a pittance for peewater JMM fight that was seized by the IRS.

The poor sissy gots more fleas than BigFoot.

[ShoulderRoll]

- -Truth is U opened up a can of worms.

Walked outta his biggest payday during Oscar rematch promos saying he was a billionaire now and weren't working for Oscar/HBO slave wages to retire. Came crawling back like the sniveling worm most know him to be for a pittance for peewater JMM fight that was seized by the IRS.

The poor sissy gots more fleas than BigFoot.

Real boxing historians won't take your drivel seriously. Sorry.