Better resume: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jack Dempsey?

[Rick Taylor]

Just to continue with the theme of the month.

We seem to have come to the conclusion that Jack Sharkey was the best fighter Dempsey beat.

Did Floyd have any wins against a more impressive fighter than Sharkey?

you just hate dempsey because of your obvious racism

[HOUDINI563]

Jack Sharkey was an excellent fighter. He fought a who’s who of contenders from his time. Few easy marks.

[Willie Pep 229]

Dempseys best win was probably his one punch ko over prime and future heavyweight champion Jack Sharkey. This in a fight where many picked him to lose and he was the odds on underdog. Also in a fight where he was being beaten and came back to win in spectacular fashion.

And NO the three right uppercuts to Sharkeys midsection prior to the ko blow were not low.

Billy Miske (KO 3) was probably Dempsey best night out.

Miske only suffered one knockdown in his career, Dempsey.

Actually has a very good resume and is in the HOF.

Battling Levinsky and Tommy Gibbons had his number (no shame in that) but they could only take NWS decisions from him; Dempsey dominated him. No other fighter could do that; no the fighter could put him down.

[Willie Pep 229]

you just hate dempsey because of your obvious racism

Maybe it's racist, maybe it isn't.

There is a theory, the 'half of the people' theory.

You're really not a star until half of the people love you AND half of the people hate you.

Whatever you might think of Donald Trump, according to the 'half of the people' theory, Trump is a superstar.

Joe Frazier was merely a celebrity for a while, half of the people loved him; on the other hand Muhammad Ali was a star.

Dempsey was an awesome fighter, one of the best to climb between the ropes, it's why the people of his day were in awe of him; why he is still today a legend.

Posters like, Shoulder, T, Jab, don't realize when they howl against Dempsey they're unwittingly testifying to his greatness.

It's probably just a 'half of the people,' thing, that's all.

[Marchegiano]

Who were these 'best wins'? --- Firpo lost to Wills by decision, with Wills only scoring a single KD on a cheap shot after the break, which the ref refused to acknowledge.

Dempsey destroyed Firpo a year earlier.

Willard never lost to a Black fighter.

Everyone beat Fulton, but only Dempsey stopped him with one punch, literally.

That leaves Brennan, Miske, and Gibbons. Did they lose to Black fighters?

Dempsey took Miske out in three, Brennan out in 12, and Gibbons stalled for 15 rounds.

How did the Black fighters do against them?

P.S. I forgot, Siki beat Carpentier, with the fight being stopped amidst controversy. Dempsey carried Carpenteir for four rounds, could have dumped him in he first if he hadn't promised Tex Rickard he wouldn't.

That's fair, I think at the time I was referring to George and Firpo. Those are the names I am used to seeing, but, since that post I've had my first baby and boy I can't remember this or where I was mentally at all. So let's just go off yours and if I feel the need I'll add to it.

Willard is possibly the weakest full champion of all time. Full as in not a titlist or pretense. Lineal or undisputed = full. I like every champion before him more for sure and then after him there are only the 30s guys I am unsure of. I think Primo takes him though. Not so sure about Sharkey, Braddock, or Bear. I don't know them as well as i do Willard or Primo.

Maybe I'm harsh on him, but, I've never once seen anyone go in for Willard being anything but one of several giant white dudes in a series that lasted a while, while JJ reigned. Someone had to be there at the right time. I don't think I've seen anyone list Willard as a great win. Then again I did say Jack's best not his great wins so that's plenty fair. Given everyone else is sad sacks Willard's got to be one of the better.

Yes Firpo did lose to Wills but before that he lost to Dave Mills for the SA HW title.

Carpentier - Dixie Kid and Jeanette both took him out prior to Dempsey, not after. That's at least Siki, Dixie, and Joe who took him out.

Miske got beaten by Norfolk twice and each time Dempsey fought Miske afterward. Flynn called Dempsey a duck when Norfolk was trying to get the Dempsey fight.

I'll give you Gibbons free and clear. To be honest no one ever acts like he's a good HW from the era but clearly he was. I don't think I had ever looked at him prior. Good HW, fought blacks and foreigners too, and, won.

Brennan I'm not so sure about. He didn't seem to fight black men himself and so it's difficult to just give him a pass. He's lost to men who lost to colored champions and has no wins over anyone with wins over colored champions. Dude's really an Irish domestic level fighter who got the Dempsey lottery.


That covered, I did say his best wins, not his best wins as champion.

Porky Dan - Norfolk, Jeanette, John Lester, and Langford

Pelkey - Norfolk, Jeanette, Battling Jim, and McVea. I think maybe Wills too but I don't remember and didn't pull him up. It's not that important given that's already four names.

Gunboat - Norfolk, Wills, and Tate

Fireman - Langford and Jack Johnson, to my knowledge...dude had a big career. Probably should have said that about a lot of these guys actually. Not like Gunboat had a small one.


Sharkey was a good win wasn't he? He only lost to Louis to my knowledge. Had wins over some good colored champ prior to the Jack fight and did not lose to one until after the Jack fight. I'd give Dempsey Sharkey.


So, in my opinion, his best wins in order:

Sharkey
Gibbons
Willard
Brennan


There are plenty of names that jump out at me but not knowing where they were at the time makes me more leary to speak to them.


It's not Wills I bother Jack's fans over. It's Norfolk. Clearly Norfolk was one of the best p4p and HWs of his era and never got a fair shake. I mean just look at how often I mention him and the chronology that goes with. Dempsey should have fought Norfolk for sure.

I don't think Miske, Firpo, Carpentier, Porky, Fireman, or Gunboat were all that great tbh. Regardless of how often it's said they were. Levinsky is a man I need to study. Probably a great win actually, I just don't know him well.

You named 5 and only 2 don't have losses. One I'm not sure even a black man. Only one man you named was a clear contender. The others are muddied by the racism of the era.

[Marchegiano]

- -And those fighters all lost to white fighters.

Someone slip U an inane Mickey?

Because they fought them. Kinda the point. Jack fought white Americans nearly exclusively regardless of who had just beaten them with the exception of other white Americans


You can't hardly use triangle theory for this bud. It's about avoidance. Jack's foes did not avoid colored champions and so lost to them. The colored champions having losses to white men speaks to their lack of avoiding white men....duh.

You did not contradict my point.

[Marchegiano]

Jack Sharkey was an excellent fighter. He fought a who’s who of contenders from his time. Few easy marks.

I agree with that. I think Sharkey is his career best.

[travestyny]

Maybe it's racist, maybe it isn't.

There is a theory, the 'half of the people' theory.

You're really not a star until half of the people love you AND half of the people hate you.

Whatever you might think of Donald Trump, according to the 'half of the people' theory, Trump is a superstar.

Joe Frazier was merely a celebrity for a while, half of the people loved him; on the other hand Muhammad Ali was a star.

Dempsey was an awesome fighter, one of the best to climb between the ropes, it's why the people of his day were in awe of him; why he is still today a legend.

Posters like, Shoulder, T, Jab, don't realize when they howl against Dempsey they're unwittingly testifying to his greatness.

It's probably just a 'half of the people,' thing, that's all.

Uh....I just keep it real when I discuss Dempsey. Everything I say about him is backed up with solid evidence. If you deny that, then point out what things I've said weren't.

I've never stated he wasn't a boxing great. However, I have no reason to pretend that he didn't have deficiencies. With all due respect, that's what posters like you do. You guys still can't even come to terms with him ducking Harry Wills, which is obvious. I also believe it was you who wouldn't admit he ducked Joe Jeannette for no other reason than Jeannette being black. Also obvious. Some of you tried to convince me that his trainer lied when he came to Dempsey's defense against using plaster by saying what he used was bicycle tape. You have no concept of reality when it comes to your hero.


I mean I unearthed and showed you guys the actual certified check for the Wills match, and you guys still tell me the money wasn't present. It doesn't get any more delusional than that.

[Willie Pep 229]

That's fair, I think at the time I was referring to George and Firpo. Those are the names I am used to seeing, but, since that post I've had my first baby and boy I can't remember this or where I was mentally at all. So let's just go off yours and if I feel the need I'll add to it.

Willard is possibly the weakest full champion of all time. Full as in not a titlist or pretense. Lineal or undisputed = full. I like every champion before him more for sure and then after him there are only the 30s guys I am unsure of. I think Primo takes him though. Not so sure about Sharkey, Braddock, or Bear. I don't know them as well as i do Willard or Primo.

Maybe I'm harsh on him, but, I've never once seen anyone go in for Willard being anything but one of several giant white dudes in a series that lasted a while, while JJ reigned. Someone had to be there at the right time. I don't think I've seen anyone list Willard as a great win. Then again I did say Jack's best not his great wins so that's plenty fair. Given everyone else is sad sacks Willard's got to be one of the better.

Yes Firpo did lose to Wills but before that he lost to Dave Mills for the SA HW title.

Carpentier - Dixie Kid and Jeanette both took him out prior to Dempsey, not after. That's at least Siki, Dixie, and Joe who took him out.

Miske got beaten by Norfolk twice and each time Dempsey fought Miske afterward. Flynn called Dempsey a duck when Norfolk was trying to get the Dempsey fight.

I'll give you Gibbons free and clear. To be honest no one ever acts like he's a good HW from the era but clearly he was. I don't think I had ever looked at him prior. Good HW, fought blacks and foreigners too, and, won.

Brennan I'm not so sure about. He didn't seem to fight black men himself and so it's difficult to just give him a pass. He's lost to men who lost to colored champions and has no wins over anyone with wins over colored champions. Dude's really an Irish domestic level fighter who got the Dempsey lottery.


That covered, I did say his best wins, not his best wins as champion.

Porky Dan - Norfolk, Jeanette, John Lester, and Langford

Pelkey - Norfolk, Jeanette, Battling Jim, and McVea. I think maybe Wills too but I don't remember and didn't pull him up. It's not that important given that's already four names.

Gunboat - Norfolk, Wills, and Tate

Fireman - Langford and Jack Johnson, to my knowledge...dude had a big career. Probably should have said that about a lot of these guys actually. Not like Gunboat had a small one.


Sharkey was a good win wasn't he? He only lost to Louis to my knowledge. Had wins over some good colored champ prior to the Jack fight and did not lose to one until after the Jack fight. I'd give Dempsey Sharkey.


So, in my opinion, his best wins in order:

Sharkey
Gibbons
Willard
Brennan


There are plenty of names that jump out at me but not knowing where they were at the time makes me more leary to speak to them.


It's not Wills I bother Jack's fans over. It's Norfolk. Clearly Norfolk was one of the best p4p and HWs of his era and never got a fair shake. I mean just look at how often I mention him and the chronology that goes with. Dempsey should have fought Norfolk for sure.

I don't think Miske, Firpo, Carpentier, Porky, Fireman, or Gunboat were all that great tbh. Regardless of how often it's said they were. Levinsky is a man I need to study. Probably a great win actually, I just don't know him well.

You named 5 and only 2 don't have losses. One I'm not sure even a black man. Only one man you named was a clear contender. The others are muddied by the racism of the era.

good post, thanks for replying, and congratulations dad!

[Willie Pep 229]

Uh....I just keep it real when I discuss Dempsey. Everything I say about him is backed up with solid evidence. If you deny that, then point out what things I've said weren't.

I've never stated he wasn't a boxing great. However, I have no reason to pretend that he didn't have deficiencies. With all due respect, that's what posters like you do. You guys still can't even come to terms with him ducking Harry Wills, which is obvious. I also believe it was you who wouldn't admit he ducked Joe Jeannette for no other reason than Jeannette being black. Also obvious. Some of you tried to convince me that his trainer lied when he came to Dempsey's defense against using plaster by saying what he used was bicycle tape. You have no concept of reality when it comes to your hero.

To the boldface, I never thought anything less. I love debating you.

To the rest, we been there, so have a good night.

It's fall in New York, take a long walk with your woman, best time of the year to hit the city streets; wish I was there.