Dempsey must be a star!

[HOUDINI563]

Very true. Wills avoided Gibbons and Tunney who both expressed interest in fighting him.

[travestyny]

Very true. Wills avoided Gibbons and Tunney who both expressed interest in fighting him.

And why would he fight them when he was the #1 contender for the title for about 7 years?

Tunney's team claims wills didn't want the fight. Wills team claims he accepted at one point and nothing came from it. Doesn't matter because the fight that the people wanted was Dempsey, but he sidestepped Wills.


Funny that you claim Wills avoided Gibbons and Tunney, but Dempsey didn't duck Wills. Your mind is warped.

[Willie Pep 229]

Very true. Wills avoided Gibbons and Tunney who both expressed interest in fighting him.

Madera Tribune, Volume XXXV, Number 103, 9 March 1925

GIBBONS WILL BATTLE WILLS

By HENRY L. FARRELL (United Press Sports Editor; NEW YORK. March 9. (United Press.)

Gibbons had a slow, hard time developing from a brother of the great Mike Gibbons to the outstanding challenger in the heavyweight class and one of the best drawing cards in the game. He made himself by having a “Yes” ready for anything fair. It has cost him money, but it has made him one of the most popular boxers that ever pulled on a glove.

Gibbons came to New York again with a challenge for Dempsey and he was asked—“ Why don’t you fight Harry Wills?” “I will.” Gibbons said. And Wills was caught In a tight place that he had no desire for.

[travestyny]

Madera Tribune, Volume XXXV, Number 103, 9 March 1925

GIBBONS WILL BATTLE WILLS

By HENRY L. FARRELL (United Press Sports Editor; NEW YORK. March 9. (United Press.)

Gibbons had a slow, hard time developing from a brother of the great Mike Gibbons to the outstanding challenger in the heavyweight class and one of the best drawing cards in the game. He made himself by having a “Yes” ready for anything fair. It has cost him money, but it has made him one of the most popular boxers that ever pulled on a glove.

Gibbons came to New York again with a challenge for Dempsey and he was asked—“ Why don’t you fight Harry Wills?” “I will.” Gibbons said. And Wills was caught In a tight place that he had no desire for.

I would love for one of you guys to explain the process by which you claim Wills ducked Gibbons or Tunney, yet Dempsey didn't duck Wills.


Seems to be a gross double standard buried somewhere in there.

[Willie Pep 229]

I would love for one of you guys to explain the process by which you claim Wills ducked Gibbons or Tunney, yet Dempsey didn't duck Wills.


Seems to be a gross double standard buried somewhere in there.

I never said, or even suggested that Wills ducked Gibbons, I was only looking to see what HOUDINI was referring to and I found the above news blurb, nothing more. I don't expect to find anything more. I don't think it went any further than Gibbons throwing out multiple names.

Wills should have taken the Tunney fight! By By 1925-1926 Wills was no longer in the position he was in '22.

[travestyny]

I never said, or even suggested that Wills ducked Gibbons, I was only looking to see what HOUDINI was referring to and I found the above news blurb, nothing more. I don't expect to find anything more. I don't think it went any further than Gibbons throwing out multiple names.

Wills should have taken the Tunney fight! By By 1925-1926 Wills was no longer in the position he was in '22.

Yea. By 1925 he was in the position where New York was telling Dempsey if he didn't fight Wills, he wouldn't fight anyone there.

So why wouldn't he want to get Dempsey? He was only his #1 contender for all the previous years that Dempsey was champ.

And by '26, he had broken contracts and injunctions against Dempsey. Word is that they were ready to take Tunney if Dempsey found yet another way to duck. Problem was, he ducked and took Tunney along for the ride.

[HOUDINI563]

Heavyweight championship bouts between white champions and black challengers were barred. This was the reason for the color line...an official statement from the champion that he would continue the long held tradition. Dempsey did not believe in the color line and what you see is the push and pull of Dempsey wanting to fight anyone and Kearns and Rickard telling him “no way”.

Contenders could fight mixed matches although they were few and far between.

[Willie Pep 229]

Yea. By 1925 he was in the position where New York was telling Dempsey if he didn't fight Wills, he wouldn't fight anyone there.

So why wouldn't he want to get Dempsey? He was only his #1 contender for all the previous years that Dempsey was champ.

And by '26, he had broken contracts and injunctions against Dempsey. Word is that they were ready to take Tunney if Dempsey found yet another way to duck. Problem was, he ducked and took Tunney along for the ride.

Because by 1926 his stock had diminished. He was using the Fulton victory (1920) as the justification for a title shot back in '22, (back then it was a legit claim,) but by '26 its impact had waned.

After '22 Wills' only major fight (read: top white guy) was Firpo ('24) and his 12 round NWS decision didn't impress. He was extended 12 rounds (with only a cheap shot, on the break, KD) against a guy Dempsey had brutalized in 2 rounds.

You are placing too much emphasis on The Ring Magazine's rankings, which had only begun in 1924, and were created by Rickard (who wanted to promote Wills' fights) The term "#1 challenger" was not a common term deployed and was only used by those it favored. It was not yet universally accepted.

What 'word' tells you they were ready to take on Tunney?

The Chicago contract was nugatory by July 16th 1925 when Dempsey publicly repudiated (breached) it. It no longer had any force of law behind it. That is why in '32 the Court would only hold Dempsey libel for the period of March 6th 1925 through July 16th 1925. All the actions taken by the Chicago AC after July 16th 1925, e.g. the $300,000 guarantee and such were meaningless and were not entertained by the Court in '32. Once a contract if publicly repudiated (breached) it stops having any force of law behind it.

So much so that Wills/Mullins then signed a second contract with Fitzsimmons, in September '25, to fight Dempsey. That second contract Wills breached when in October he broke the "no interim fight clause" when he took on Floyd Johnson.

By January 1926 both contracts were void. Dempsey doesn't sign with Rickard for Tunney until April, 26th 1926. What was Wills doing between January and late April?

Tex Rickard was trying to get Wills to fight Tunney, (he wanted to double-dip on Dempsey's comeback fight with some preliminaries,) and Rickard had the keys to Dempsey, so Gibson/Tunney would have had to play ball if Wills was willing.

So what 'word' did you hear?

The idea that "Dempsey" stole Tunney away from Wills is nonsense, Rickard had Tunney under contract and was pulling his strings, not Dempsey. And Rickard wanted Wills-Tunney first, so why didn't it happen? Blaming Dempsey isn't the answer.

I still say, IF the Tunney fight was there Wills should have taken it.

[Willie Pep 229]

Heavyweight championship bouts between white champions and black challengers were barred. This was the reason for the color line...an official statement from the champion that he would continue the long held tradition. Dempsey did not believe in the color line and what you see is the push and pull of Dempsey wanting to fight anyone and Kearns and Rickard telling him “no way”.

Contenders could fight mixed matches although they were few and far between.

By 1922 (Post Johnson) some of the States were still barring mixed fights. Massachusetts was dead against it. New Jersey kept flip-flopping on the issue depending on who got elected, left or right.

New York, during '22 even had a split inside the NYSAC, at first denying the fight and then changing their minds and announcing they would accept it, only to have the Polo Grounds manager announce he wouldn't accept the fight, only to have him over-ruled by City Hall.

It was a real mess with no consistent policy in place and no one was really sure what venue would or would not take the fight (Dempsey-Wills).

Venue was a major problem for any promoter who tried to take on the fight; Frazee, Brady, Fitzsimmons, Rickard all were being forced to try and move forward uncertain as to what would happen next.

Backers were scare to through their money on the table. You never knew what a State would do next, each election could bring about a change in policy.

[travestyny]

Because by 1926 his stock had diminished. He was using the Fulton victory (1920) as the justification for a title shot back in '22, (back then it was a legit claim,) but by '26 its impact had waned.

After '22 Wills' only major fight (read: top white guy) was Firpo ('24) and his 12 round NWS decision didn't impress. He was extended 12 rounds (with only a cheap shot, on the break, KD) against a guy Dempsey had brutalized in 2 rounds.

You are placing too much emphasis on The Ring Magazine's rankings, which had only begun in 1924, and were created by Rickard (who wanted to promote Wills' fights) The term "#1 challenger" was not a common term deployed and was only used by those it favored. It was not yet universally accepted.

So you're telling me that Wills wasn't the logical challenger to Dempsey at the beginning of '26?

Pretty sure he was. So all of the above isn't relevant.

What 'word' tells you they were ready to take on Tunney?

The Chicago contract was nugatory by July 16th 1925 when Dempsey publicly repudiated (breached) it. It no longer had any force of law behind it. That is why in '32 the Court would only hold Dempsey libel for the period of March 6th 1925 through July 16th 1925. All the actions taken by the Chicago AC after July 16th 1925, e.g. the $300,000 guarantee and such were meaningless and were not entertained by the Court in '32. Once a contract if publicly repudiated (breached) it stops having any force of law behind it.

So much so that Wills/Mullins then signed a second contract with Fitzsimmons, in September '25, to fight Dempsey. That second contract Wills breached when in October he broke the "no interim fight clause" when he took on Floyd Johnson.

By January 1926 both contracts were void. Dempsey doesn't sign with Rickard for Tunney until April, 26th 1926. What was Wills doing between January and late April?

Tex Rickard was trying to get Wills to fight Tunney, (he wanted to double-dip on Dempsey's comeback fight with some preliminaries,) and Rickard had the keys to Dempsey, so Gibson/Tunney would have had to play ball if Wills was willing.

lol. The Chicago contract that I've been referring to was signed by Dempsey in March of 1926. Kinda throws a wrench into all of the above. Your dates are off, cousin.

So what 'word' did you hear?

The idea that "Dempsey" stole Tunney away from Wills is nonsense, Rickard had Tunney under contract and was pulling his strings, not Dempsey. And Rickard wanted Wills-Tunney first, so why didn't it happen? Blaming Dempsey isn't the answer.

I still say, IF the Tunney fight was there Wills should have taken it.

I'm glad you mention Rickard as being in the know.

Douglas Daily Dispatch April 28th, 1926

Some interesting things here.

1. Rickard claims to know that Paddy Mullins signed a contract binding Wills to a fight with Tunney through another promoter in case Dempsey evades the Chicago contract.

For the record, I take anything Rickard says with a grain of salt, and I imagine this was more shadiness by Rickard. However, the point is Wills wouldn't be able to fight Tunney at this time because there was already the Dempsey Tunney fight in the works. There's statements I've seen with Wills' team saying they'd take on Tunney if it ensures a Dempsey fight. Also seen statements saying some of these Rickard Tunney offers were phantom offers, meaning they never happened. And I wasn't saying that Dempsey is to blame for "stealing away Tunney." I was simply saying that If Dempsey is fighting Tunney, obviously Wills can't fight Tunney at that time.

2. Rickard says he has a contract for Dempsey to fight Tunney or Wills in New York or New Jersey.

Notice how he always makes it a point of saying Dempsey isn't scared of Wills or Dempsey wants Wills or Dempsey thinks Wills is easier and that's why he wants him. Reeks of a childish psychological rhetoric desperately trying to throw people off the obvious that they've ducked this fight for years.

And the obvious....if he is open to Wills in New York.......why the hell did they duck Wills in New York? The proof is in the pudding.