Jack Dempsey's Refusal to Fight Joe Jeanette

[QueensburyRules]

He wrote in 50 years at ringside that he spent numerous vacations in Havana prior to attending the Willard Johnson bout.

The only thing he gets wrong is the KO where he includes a right to the heart as one of the deciding blows but in the days before instant replays I can’t find fault. If you can find the version of this bout that shows the entire 26th round there is a right hand prior to the final blow that buckles Johnsons knees. I could see if Nat was sitting at the wrong angle to this blow it could have been interpreted as a punch higher on the chest.

Willard comment was that “it was hotter than hell” in that ring that day.

- -Previous, like maybe 30 sec or even the rd before, Willard does land a telling right to the heart, a very forgotten punch in the modern era.

[Willie Pep 229]

He wrote in 50 years at ringside that he spent numerous vacations in Havana prior to attending the Willard Johnson bout.

The only thing he gets wrong is the KO where he includes a right to the heart as one of the deciding blows but in the days before instant replays I can’t find fault. If you can find the version of this bout that shows the entire 26th round there is a right hand prior to the final blow that buckles Johnsons knees. I could see if Nat was sitting at the wrong angle to this blow it could have been interpreted as a punch higher on the chest.

Willard comment was that “it was hotter than hell” in that ring that day.

You are going to just ignore the Havana newspaper and all the other empirical evidence just shown to you and continue to quote old men telling stories?

Willard took too many punches - later in life he confused the Havana fight with the 1919 Toledo fight, where it was 100 degrees.

Try looking at photos of both fight and you will see the reality.

Here's an example of just how lucid Willard wasn't:

Jack Dempsey on Hiring Jess Willard as a Salesman

Some time after I opened the restaurant I was approached by Jess Willard who asked me to give him a job. He was down, and I was the only person he felt he could turn to for help. I was more skeptical than flattered, but I decided to give him a try. At the time we carried Jack Dempsey's Special Label Whiskey, "the whiskey with a punch," so I gave him a job as a liquor salesman, promoting our liquor.

When word got out that Willard was gong to launch our whiskey in an advertising campaign, the press, along with their cameras, jammed themselves into the restaurant.

The ad called for Jess to walk over to the bar where the barman would say, Well, Well! if it isn't Jess Willard! What'll you have Jess?

"A Jack Dempsey Special Label on the rocks, please."

We went through it several times until it sounded natural. Then came lights and action as the lenses zoomed in on Willard.

"Well, Well! if it isn't Jess Willard! What'll you have Jess?"

"I'll have a Johnnie Walker Black on the rocks," said Jess.

After Willard had been on the job a while, he began to stop by the bar quite a bit. I recall the time the bartender asked Jess if he wanted a Jack Dempsey Special label. Unfortunately, Jess was overheard saying "Jack Dempsey Special label? That junk? No thanks."

Jess Willard wasn't with me for long the first time, nor was he with me for long this time, but I'll say one thing for Willard, in his own unique way, he tried.

[HOUDINI563]

The issue is that both Fleischer and Willard both mentioned the heat. No mention of a specific temperature.

[Willie Pep 229]

The issue is that both Fleischer and Willard both mentioned the heat. No mention of a specific temperature.

Yea they both did say that I have read it as well; Willard has an excuse, too many punches and a real 100 degree fight on his resume, Fleischer was a 'show boater' (to use a 1920's term) who should have kept his mouth shut: Ali-Liston II.

[HOUDINI563]

If you read many of the ringside reports mentioned the “suns intensity”, “the sun beat down hotly”. (Grand Forks Daily record)

That morning mention is made that “when the day broke” temperatures were chilly but the bout was delayed and did not start until nearly 2:00 pm that afternoon. So the fight took place during the hottest point of the day.

I don’t see any mention in Fleischer book of 100 plus degree weather just that the sun was “intense”.

The sun was very intense no doubt based upon ringside report. Ring canvas could be quite hot simply because of the full blaze of the sun. This could make fighting conditions appear more severe for the combatants.

[HOUDINI563]

If you watch the bout from the very first round Willard would throw his jab, Johnson would parry it, and then Willard would throw his right to Johnson’s body, typically his chest. Until later in the bout most of these body blows Johnson blocked.

As the bout unfolded Willard, as per his fight plan, let Johnson attack while slowly backing away letting Johnson’s blows either fall short or land with less power.

Then after round 20 Willard turned up the steam physically pushing Johnson around in close aggressively obviously to tire and overwhelm him.

Johnson admitted right after the bout that 2-3 rounds before the ko he was all in....exhausted.

Johnson freely admitted he was beaten by the better man right after the bout.

Watching the entire 26th round is telling. Generally the first part of that round is not shown as it’s a bit jumpy. Johnson knees buckled within the first 30 seconds of the round and the ko blow was brutal.

Willard as per Fleischer was ready to fight the world that day in Havana. His trainers had him run up the steepest hills they could find to strengthen his legs. Willard was the first white hope to be trained to fight over 20 rounds.

[Marchegiano]

I mean, it's kinda pointless. I asked why should I give a hoot about a known liar's depiction. Man says, 'cause he was there.



Well, ****, my older brother is a lot of places. I don't trust his lying ass either.

[HOUDINI563]

You would need to prove he “lied”. The guy attended thousands of fights over a 70 year period. I’ve found that predominantly he described fights accurately. The Willard Johnson bout he described well including conversations with Willard and his trainers. I’ve heard some say he did not attend Johnson’s bout with Jeffries yet his description of the bout was accurate and he notes specific conversations during training and most telling he joined the Johnson camp on the train ride back from Reno to Chicago culminating with a one of one interview with Johnson where he stood up and described in detail the punch sequence that was the turning point of the fight.... a feint which made Jeffries think Johnson was going to throw his right but instead he stepped in with a left uppercut that closed Jeffries eye.

Anyway you can find wonderful descriptions of fighters like Greb and Rosenbloom that Nat watched from ringside many multiple of occasions.

[travestyny]

You would need to prove he “lied”. The guy attended thousands of fights over a 70 year period. I’ve found that predominantly he described fights accurately. The Willard Johnson bout he described well including conversations with Willard and his trainers. I’ve heard some say he did not attend Johnson’s bout with Jeffries yet his description of the bout was accurate and he notes specific conversations during training and most telling he joined the Johnson camp on the train ride back from Reno to Chicago culminating with a one of one interview with Johnson where he stood up and described in detail the punch sequence that was the turning point of the fight.... a feint which made Jeffries think Johnson was going to throw his right but instead he stepped in with a left uppercut that closed Jeffries eye.

Anyway you can find wonderful descriptions of fighters like Greb and Rosenbloom that Nat watched from ringside many multiple of occasions.

So what's your opinion of Farley? I think it was you who claimed he was a friend of Dempsey and thought of him as one of the greatest champions, something to that affect.

He believes Dempsey was dodging Wills. I'll post it one more time:

I have heard it said that politics is responsible for the failure to bring Dempsey and Wills together. To those who have mentioned this to me I have replied that such a thought is ridiculous. I know of no political or official opposition to such a bout and I have talked with many prominent and powerful men on the subject. On the contrary, I find that there exists a general demand for the bout.

same article:

Is that not part of the historical record?


Also, would he have been more in the know about who was holding up this fight than Fleischer?

[Willie Pep 229]

So what's your opinion of Farley? I think it was you who claimed he was a friend of Dempsey and thought of him as one of the greatest champions, something to that affect.

He believes Dempsey was dodging Wills. I'll post it one more time:

same article:

Is that not part of the historical record?


Also, would he have been more in the know about who was holding up this fight than Fleischer?

I guess I have to say it one more time . . . James Farley was a Tammany Hall ******** who was catering to his Harlem constituency and was assisting Tammany's effort to bring a big money fight to New York. Dempsey fighting anyone except their guy, Harry Wills, was not on the NYSAC agenda.

I will also mention, again, that James Farley reinstated a suspended Primo Carnera three days before his first Sharkey fight (a New York fight at Ebbetts Field) and then attempted to shamelessly make the fight it a title fight, resulting in newspaper writers calling for an unbiased national governing body to be created.

Why do you keep bringing this one source up, it is so obvious that he is Tammany, doing Tammany's bidding.

T

I just ran across a source from 1914 (singular) where Packey McFarland's former manager, Harry Gilmore, while under oath no less, claims he falsified McFarland' Knockout record.

Of course not mentioned is that McFarland had sacked the guy back in 1909; should I now conclude that McFarland's record is bogus, or should I now looked deeper into Harry Gilmore and try to evaluate him as a source?

P.S. Do you want to see the Harry Gilmore remark? It is interesting, but comes with a big qualification.