Max Schmeling vs Archie Moore

[Rusty Tromboni]

Nationality doesnt have anything to do with it really does it?

Not like the 30s guys you have praising to the hilt look like a million dollars on film. I think they have been underrated over time, but Max Baer, Sharkey, Carnera... none of them looked like elite talents, though they did have some elite attributes.

You say 'refer to the footage' as if that helps your point. Moore was an exceptional fighter, clear for anyone to see. As were many of the post war guys.

Nationality has almost everything to do with it.

Would anyone be surprised if more champions and top 10 placeholders came from Pennsylvania than outside of it?

Name me a city greater for Boxing than Pittsburgh - Philadelphia doesn't count.

Conversely it's practically impossible to argue a single ethnic group has been more dominant across the history of Boxing than the Irish. No other group has moved it forward so much. No other group has gotten a better return on their numbers. No other group has maintained a presence for so long after moving so high up the social ladder. You can even go as far as to say Boxing IS the Irish Martial Art and that they invented it. And yet, how many Champions have emerged from Irish soil over the last 2 Centuries?

Boxing is a super sophisticated sport. It's anything but two guys standing there swinging their fists at each other. It requires lots of investment and cultivation.

Speaking to that point. The fall off in talent Post WWII probably saved Charles and Moore, but also benefited Boxing long run. Instead of being run out of town by another Teddy Yarosz or Billy Conn, they had an opportunity to fine tune their skills, in absence of natiral ability, against outmatched competition.

[Tom Cruise]

Nationality has almost everything to do with it.

Would anyone be surprised if more champions and top 10 placeholders came from Pennsylvania than outside of it?

Name me a city greater for Boxing than Pittsburgh - Philadelphia doesn't count.

Conversely it's practically impossible to argue a single ethnic group has been more dominant across the history of Boxing than the Irish. No other group has moved it forward so much. No other group has gotten a better return on their numbers. No other group has maintained a presence for so long after moving so high up the social ladder. You can even go as far as to say Boxing IS the Irish Martial Art and that they invented it. And yet, how many Champions have emerged from Irish soil over the last 2 Centuries?

Boxing is a super sophisticated sport. It's anything but two guys standing there swinging their fists at each other. It requires lots of investment and cultivation.

Speaking to that point. The fall off in talent Post WWII probably saved Charles and Moore, but also benefited Boxing long run. Instead of being run out of town by another Teddy Yarosz or Billy Conn, they had an opportunity to fine tune their skills, in absence of natiral ability, against outmatched competition.

Ok then mate, good boxers can’t come from obscure places, Moore and Charles didn’t have talent and I’m not even sure what relevance the Irish comment has. I definitely don’t want to get into ethnicity in relation to boxing, but suffice to say that once African Americans were allowed to compete with the rest of the field, the sport was never the same again.

I think we have reached a point where we literally can’t agree on a single thing relating to boxing, so not sure there is much point us continuing. It’s exhausting replying to comments where I don’t agree with a single thing you say, and I’m sure you feel the same for me.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Nationality doesnt have anything to do with it really does it?

Not like the 30s guys you have praising to the hilt look like a million dollars on film. I think they have been underrated over time, but Max Baer, Sharkey, Carnera... none of them looked like elite talents, though they did have some elite attributes.

You say 'refer to the footage' as if that helps your point. Moore was an exceptional fighter, clear for anyone to see. As were many of the post war guys.

Yup. Getting bounced off the canvas by Durelle and KO'd by Patterson proves how great he was.

He might make Baer look ridiculous for a little while. But not as ridiculous as Baer would make him look when splattered on the canvas.

Tell me what Moore does that Schmeling can't to survive Baer. Tell me straight-faced that Louis doesn't KO Moore if you substitute him for Schmeling.

Moore would be fighting a much better version of himself.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Ok then mate, good boxers can’t come from obscure places, Moore and Charles didn’t have talent and I’m not even sure what relevance the Irish comment has. I definitely don’t want to get into ethnicity in relation to boxing, but suffice to say that once African Americans were allowed to compete with the rest of the field, the sport was never the same again.

I think we have reached a point where we literally can’t agree on a single thing relating to boxing, so not sure there is much point us continuing. It’s exhausting replying to comments where I don’t agree with a single thing you say, and I’m sure you feel the same for me.

It's a pretty obvious one. I do sense a lot goes over your head.

But since you mentioned Blacks, the inverse also applies. Their success in Boxing has pretty much been decided by the status of Whites in life. When Whites are doing well then Blacks do well in Boxing. When things aren't as good economically Whites maintain the stronger presence in Boxing.

[billeau2]

Yup. Getting bounced off the canvas by Durelle and KO'd by Patterson proves how great he was.

He might make Baer look ridiculous for a little while. But not as ridiculous as Baer would make him look when splattered on the canvas.

Tell me what Moore does that Schmeling can't to survive Baer. Tell me straight-faced that Louis doesn't KO Moore if you substitute him for Schmeling.

Moore would be fighting a much better version of himself.

Based on what exactly? your ****** theory about post world war 2 fighters lacking talent? despite the abstract knowledge taken from Dempsey, who started focusing on the punches...and rarified by Louis perhaps the most perfect puncher ever?

Ill do you one better trombone... when Tunney fought Dempsey? he fought in a style used by the bar knuckle champs, mentored by Corbett who was ironicly a bare knuckle fighter who never fought a bare knuckle bought. Tunney showed to a great extent, that no style was superior... it was a pretty even fight frankly, especially the first.

There is nothing to suggest a drop in talent, in fact it would seem that both the original style of fighting based on fencing (james Figg) was equal to the task... Look at the film Rusty, not that shiny thing above the bathroom sink... lol

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=Rusty Tromboni;20600870]It's a pretty obvious one. I do sense a lot goes over your head.

But since you mentioned Blacks, the inverse also applies. Their success in Boxing has pretty much been decided by the status of Whites in life. When Whites are doing well then Blacks do well in Boxing. When things aren't as good economically Whites maintain the stronger presence in Boxing.[/QU

Proof please. Blacks have been great fighters since boxing...You just don't recognize it. You mention obscure fighters call them kings...Like Pasteur, then expect people to buy your horse s h it. Lol.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Proof please. Blacks have been great fighters since boxing...You just don't recognize it. You mention obscure fighters call them kings...Like Pasteur, then expect people to buy your horse s h it. Lol.

Proof of what?

You can't come to your own conclusions can you? Everything you believe has to be something someone else wrote.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Based on what exactly? your ****** theory about post world war 2 fighters lacking talent? despite the abstract knowledge taken from Dempsey, who started focusing on the punches...and rarified by Louis perhaps the most perfect puncher ever?

Ill do you one better trombone... when Tunney fought Dempsey? he fought in a style used by the bar knuckle champs, mentored by Corbett who was ironicly a bare knuckle fighter who never fought a bare knuckle bought. Tunney showed to a great extent, that no style was superior... it was a pretty even fight frankly, especially the first.

There is nothing to suggest a drop in talent, in fact it would seem that both the original style of fighting based on fencing (james Figg) was equal to the task... Look at the film Rusty, not that shiny thing above the bathroom sink... lol

Did you at least wash your hands before typing that?

Why didn't we get some tangent about an Alexander Pope poem you read about in Reader's Digest, or some Yoyo Ma piece your dentist told you about?

[billeau2]

Proof of what?

You can't come to your own conclusions can you? Everything you believe has to be something someone else wrote.

If that is what proof is to you that explains a lot

No wait... I can be the bigger man, your correct. We should all blowhard our assertions and assume they are correct, who needs to investigate whether this is so or not? Makes sense

if your a moron!!

[billeau2]

Did you at least wash your hands before typing that?

Why didn't we get some tangent about an Alexander Pope poem you read about in Reader's Digest, or some Yoyo Ma piece your dentist told you about?

ehhh not quite my style ole boy...Try that again I will wait. of course you could respond to the content of the post...but that would be impossible because it is over your head isn't it Rusty? its ok... If you can't keep up Ill slow it down for ya...

1) when we talk about "changes" we need to present what changed, not just random thoughts about Irish guys and who we think are great... But WHAT changed.

2) WHAT changed in boxing and how it was put to a test in the ring has to do with an older classical style of fighting characterized by fighting off the back foot, setting traps, using a 3 foot distance (sword length) and using a style of punching that would not work to transfer punches with larger gloves.

3) Dempsey changed the paradigm to embody a focus on the selection of punches and how to throw then technically. He even wrote a book about this process.

4) Louis through BlackBurn's genius went a step farther and developed Louis who had perfect form in the use of the punches.


There you are toots... see those are CHANGES that we can weigh in on. They are tangible developments that we can see and form an opinion over. Unlike for example, when some blowhard mentions an obscure fighter and pronounces them the equal of men like Ray Robinson, with no tangible proof to put fourth.

No no...don't thank me. Im a teacher your a teacher, its what we fvking do! Call it love of the craft. You can come out of the dunce corner now BTW.