Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[GhostofDempsey]

I've already proven that exhibitions in New York could be for the title. See Willard vs. Moran

Your opinion. Ok.
Seems you had the same idea as the promoters.

August 15th 1912

http://freepdfhosting.com/47cea40102.pdf

YOU don't believe. Ok.
This is irrelevant. What does this have to do with whether the fight was for Jack Johnson's title?



The promoters let it be known this was to be a title fight the day after it was signed by JJohnson. 4 days BEFORE McKetrick's statement. Look at the date of the above article, and below is the date of McKetrick's statement.

August 19th, 1912

http://freepdfhosting.com/2a66de542c.pdf

So??? How did this all become about McKetrick?



So this was all masterminded by McKetrick? Are you forgetting that two promoters put up a lot of money including forfeits, and a commission which didn't object when MSG tried to get the fight with Johnson for $20,000 had to hold a meeting to decide if they would allow the fight. That has nothing to do with McKetrick.

Jeannette himself would have to put up a forfeit. So now you're arguing that Jeannette's manager was behind faking this entire match and having Joe Jeannette throw money away....while claiming he is the true champion?????

Come on...does this make sense to anyone? You have to admit. This makes no damn sense.



The only thing I saw from Wills was him talking about sparring with Johnson and saying he wasn't nice. Don't remember seeing anything from Langford or McVey. Already said Jeanntte is lying if he says Johnson drew the color line on him. If the others say the same (don't know why Harry Wills would because I don't recall anything about those two fighting), then they are either misinformed or lying.

But make no mistake, my question was indeed ducked. Let me ask you it AGAIN so that you can properly understand it.

What source do you have that clearly states the proposed 1912 bout between Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette would NOT be for the title? I'm not interested in your feelings on McKetrick, the new evil mastermind. You've honestly gone off the deep end with that, bruh.

Nothing you said above addressed my question.

You offered a false claim about NY exhibitions, a wild conspiracy theory about Joe Jeannette's manager who appreantly DIDN'T WANT the Jack Johnson fight......?..... and blanket testimony from boxers that does not address this specific incident that we are disussing.

Do you have a clear source that says the proposed fight would NOT be for the title. I've offered plenty that say it was for the title. Do you have a credible source that specifically says the opposite?


---Edit----

It's time to just end the games man because it's clear you will keep ducking it.

Here is your answer: No, you don't have a source that says the proposed fight would not be for the title. You don't have one because it doesn't exist. Meanwhile, there are various statements from fighters, promoters, managers, and media that it was to be for the title.

I don't know about you, but when it comes to having sources to back up our claim with regards to this specific matter: something > nothing.

There is a reason that other posters have understood this in 2 posts, and a billion posts later you can't understand it. You don't want to understand it. You can't admit that you're wrong and you're blinded by your bias.

And once again. You're still arguing something that factually can't be true. You talk about me trying to change history. How do you explain this:

So what's a fact and what's a lie regarding this supposed color line? Seems to me, YOU are trying to change history.

I gave you multiple opportunities to offer something more than a few news articles and why I don't accept them as evidence to overturn history, you have ignored all of my sources to include all of the fighters themselves. Now you call them liars because their version of what happened doesn't jive with your opinion and your anonymous news articles that you have invested all of your faith in. Stop trying to suggest or recruit other posters into this, no one aside from your BFF Shoulderroll is going along with you. You've ruined this thread which was your intent from the beginning "Mr. F***ing up the game".

You just lied when you claimed you heard nothing about Langford, McVea or Wills saying they never got title shots. I posted it all throughout this thread and it's in the history books, which you continue to dismiss. You even countered by saying he didn't draw the color line because he fought Battling Jim Johnson...yet, Jack Johnson claimed he ducked all the rest because there was no money fighting black fighters, yet he fought Jim Johnson. Now you're pulling fake forfeits out of your ass, since no details of this alleged title fight can be found with financial particulars and specifics to the NY fight which was cancelled. If the NY commission pulls the fight no one forfeits their money since neither fighter is refusing the fight or breaching a contract. You are wasting my time and the time of the forum with your attrition tactics and refusal to acknowledge other people's sources and opinions that differ from your own.

Your question was not ducked, you just don't like the answer because it exposes your weak sources and leaves you in a position where you cannot prove your position or disprove mine. You have an obsession with "winning" at all costs and accusing people of ducking, lying, squirming when things don't go your way. I'll leave it to the rest of the forum to decide for themselves what they believe. There are no trophies to be won here, nor is there any sense in trying to communicate with you like a rational adult.

[travestyny]

I gave you multiple opportunities to offer something more than a few news articles and why I don't accept them as evidence to overturn history, you have ignored all of my sources to include all of the fighters themselves. Now you call them liars because their version of what happened doesn't jive with your opinion and your anonymous news articles that you have invested all of your faith in. Stop trying to suggest or recruit other posters into this, no one aside from your BFF Shoulderroll is going along with you. You've ruined this thread which was your intent from the beginning "Mr. F***ing up the game".

You keep accusing me of "ruining this thread" but all I've done is have a normal conversation with you. You're obviously upset because your proof is lacking and you don't know how to handle that I've provided source after source. To the point that you've tried to make Dan McKetrick a scapegoat. It's embarrassing.

Willie Pep also stated how he saw this issue, but I know how you do. Lie and lie some more. You didn't see what he posted I guess?

You just lied when you claimed you heard nothing about Langford, McVea or Wills saying they never got title shots. I posted it all throughout this thread and it's in the history books, which you continue to dismiss. You even countered by saying he didn't draw the color line because he fought Battling Jim Johnson...yet, Jack Johnson claimed he ducked all the rest because there was no money fighting black fighters, yet he fought Jim Johnson.

Your rambling is becoming incoherent. Just because you posted something here doesn't mean I read it. I read what you posted by Jeannette and Wills. I don't remember reading anything by Langford. Why does it matter if I did or didn't? I've already stated straight up that if he says Johnson drew the color line he is mistaken or lying. You just said above that he fought Jim Johnson so apparently you also know it's false.

Nothing you said above overcomes the proof that he agreed to fight Jeannette, McVea, and Langford and had the fights pulled by no fault of his own. Your way of trying to deal with the Jeanntte information is laughable, which I assume is why when I've chopped through all of it, you only respond saying the same thing again.

Now you're pulling fake forfeits out of your ass, since no details of this alleged title fight can be found with financial particulars and specifics to the NY fight which was cancelled. If the NY commission pulls the fight no one forfeits their money since neither fighter is refusing the fight or breaching a contract. You are wasting my time and the time of the forum with your attrition tactics and refusal to acknowledge other people's sources and opinions that differ from your own.

I have one more question for you. How many times do I have to prove you wrong?

Fake forfeits, right?

Media Confirmation of the Forefeits.

As a guarantee of their ability to stage the match between Jack Johnson and Joe Jeanette in New York, September 25, Jess and Eddie McMahon, fight promoters, notified Jack Johnson here today that they had posted a $5,000 forfeit and that Jeanette would put up a similar amount this afternoon.

Johnson asserted that as he carried about $5,000 around in each pocket these days, and that he would put up his forfeit money as soon as he received assurances that Jeanette had posted his coin with the stakeholder.

Promoters confirmation of the forfeits.

The forfeits were posted in this town Monday and all that is left for us to do is to sell the tickets.

Jack Johnson confirmation of the forfeits and that he will seek it if the NY Commission doesn't allow the fight.

Champion Jack Johnson will claim the forfeit of $5000 if the New York Boxing Commission refuses a permit for his New York fight with Joe Jeannette, scheduled for September 2S at the St. Nicholas A. C. Jeannette has posted his forfeit according to agreement and Jack today placed his own money in the hands of Al Tearney.

"If 1 failed to live up to the articles they would get me," said Johnson, "and I guess turn about is fair play. When I signed the agreement to meet Jeanette the McMahon brothers told me the bout would surely take place. My money Is up and now it is up to them to make good or I will claim their forfeit.

Just stop it. I've proven over and over that IT'S YOU THAT PULLS SHlT OUT OF HIS ASS AND HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FVVCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Your question was not ducked, you just don't like the answer because it exposes your weak sources and leaves you in a position where you cannot prove your position or disprove mine. You have an obsession with "winning" at all costs and accusing people of ducking, lying, squirming when things don't go your way. I'll leave it to the rest of the forum to decide for themselves what they believe. There are no trophies to be won here, nor is there any sense in trying to communicate with you like a rational adult.

LMAOOO. Oh please. You ducked the question. I asked for a source that specifically mentioned this fight, and you ducked the fvvck out of it with a wild tale about the evil manager, Dan McKetrick, who was working against his client! lol.

I've proven you wrong over and over and over again, but you're so hurt by Jack Johnson that you can't admit it. What the hell is wrong with you????

You were ready to bail out of this convo before. All I had to do was ask Willie Pep his opinion before you came running back writing to me. You desperately want people to buy the bllshlt you're spewing.

What did you think of Willie saying this:

If Johnson fights Jeannette, retired or not retired that fight would have been considered for the title, so who cares what McKetrick claimed or not?

It should be obvious to everyone that your clinging onto McKetrick is merely desperation, and no one is ****** enough to buy it.

[Marchegiano]

I don't know, but I will looks about when I get the time.

I am honestly very weak in promotional history. I just started a few years back with that and never really got much. I'm still doing Ring/PG, which granted is the monster of historical promotion, but, I've done little to no research into promoters specifically outside of Nat and ****.

I know the run of the mill stuff like Tex and what not everyone here knows, but I have no special knowledge and do not believe I knew the WWE guys were once in boxing.

I'll certainly have a look when I get time and if I have anything related I'll post the clipping. Thanks for mentioning me, it's an interesting thread.

[GhostofDempsey]

You keep accusing me of "ruining this thread" but all I've done is have a normal conversation with you. You're obviously upset because your proof is lacking and you don't know how to handle that I've provided source after source. To the point that you've tried to make Dan McKetrick a scapegoat. It's embarrassing.

Willie Pep also stated how he saw this issue, but I know how you do. Lie and lie some more. You didn't see what he posted I guess?



Your rambling is becoming incoherent. Just because you posted something here doesn't mean I read it. I read what you posted by Jeannette and Wills. I don't remember reading anything by Langford. Why does it matter if I did or didn't? I've already stated straight up that if he says Johnson drew the color line he is mistaken or lying. You just said above that he fought Jim Johnson so apparently you also know it's false.

Nothing you said above overcomes the proof that he agreed to fight Jeannette, McVea, and Langford and had the fights pulled by no fault of his own. Your way of trying to deal with the Jeanntte information is laughable, which I assume is why when I've chopped through all of it, you only respond saying the same thing again.



I have one more question for you. How many times do I have to prove you wrong?

Fake forfeits, right?

Media Confirmation of the Forefeits.

Promoters confirmation of the forfeits.

Jack Johnson confirmation of the forfeits and that he will seek it if the NY Commission doesn't allow the fight.

Just stop it. I've proven over and over that IT'S YOU THAT PULLS SHlT OUT OF HIS ASS AND HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FVVCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.




LMAOOO. Oh please. You ducked the question. I asked for a source that specifically mentioned this fight, and you ducked the fvvck out of it with a wild tale about the evil manager, Dan McKetrick, who was working against his client! lol.

I've proven you wrong over and over and over again, but you're so hurt by Jack Johnson that you can't admit it. What the hell is wrong with you????

You were ready to bail out of this convo before. All I had to do was ask Willie Pep his opinion before you came running back writing to me. You desperately want people to buy the bllshlt you're spewing.

What did you think of Willie saying this:




It should be obvious to everyone that your clinging onto McKetrick is merely desperation, and no one is ****** enough to buy it.

You really need help. Willie Pep? Really, the noob who you disagreed with until you DM'd one another and you try to soften him up to agree with you the same way you did with me? Willie Pep did not offer any new supporting documentation to validate your position. McKetrick knew damn well the fight couldn't be made.

The McMahon Brothers promoting in NY tried again to get a Johnson v Jeannette title fight off the ground and they upped their offer to the required amount, The NY boxing commission immediately banned Johnson from fighting in the state and issued the following announcement on Jan 11th 1912.

"I will not allow Johnson to box in the state against anyone, I have come to the conclusion it is against public policy and expediency to have Johnson box here.This is final." Boxing Commissioner Frank O' Neill."

If the boxing commissioner announced way back in January of 1912 that Johnson would not be allowed to fight in NY and his decision was final, then why would McKetrick try to make a fight in NY? Again, this fight could have been made just about anywhere in Europe. Johnson didn't want it. History proves this!

I've answered you over and over, each time you try to post what you THINK is proof, I respond with sources with FACTS that get you frustrated and angry and you try to gaslight me. Then accuse me of ducking a question that you are either too dense or obtuse to accept the answer. I've given you ample opportunities to state your case and keep this civil. No amount of tantrums, pouting and accusations change the fact that HISTORY HAS RECORDED JACK JOHNSON DENIED THESE FIGHTERS TITLE SHOTS!!!!

[travestyny]

You really need help. Willie Pep? Really, the noob who you disagreed with until you DM'd one another and you try to soften him up to agree with you the same way you did with me? Willie Pep did not offer any new supporting documentation to validate your position. McKetrick knew damn well the fight couldn't be made.

Go ahead and attack him because he doesn't agree with you. Good call.

Last I checked, mcKetrick wasn't the promoter.

The McMahon Brothers promoting in NY tried again to get a Johnson v Jeannette title fight off the ground and they upped their offer to the required amount, The NY boxing commission immediately banned Johnson from fighting in the state and issued the following announcement on Jan 11th 1912.

"I will not allow Johnson to box in the state against anyone, I have come to the conclusion it is against public policy and expediency to have Johnson box here.This is final." Boxing Commissioner Frank O' Neill."

If the boxing commissioner announced way back in January of 1912 that Johnson would not be allowed to fight in NY and his decision was final, then why would McKetrick try to make a fight in NY? Again, this fight could have been made just about anywhere in Europe. Johnson didn't want it. History proves this!

False. Everyone thought the ban on Jack Johnson was against fighting white boxers. They assumed he would be allowed to fight Joe Jeannette, especially because the commission didn't mention anything when MSG was trying to get Johnson vs. Jeannette. After this fight was made, there was no word by the commission until they met up, called the promoters in, and then decided not to allow the fight.

If you would actually read any of the things I've posted instead of ducking them, you would have known this already.

I've answered you over and over, each time you try to post what you THINK is proof, I respond with sources with FACTS that get you frustrated and angry and you try to gaslight me. Then accuse me of ducking a question that you are either too dense or obtuse to accept the answer. I've given you ample opportunities to state your case and keep this civil. No amount of tantrums, pouting and accusations change the fact that HISTORY HAS RECORDED JACK JOHNSON DENIED THESE FIGHTERS TITLE SHOTS!!!!

Really?

Then post your source that specifically says the 1912 fight would not be for the title.

I've only asked a million times.


And do you realize that your line of defense has become McKetrick was chasing Jack Johnson for a title shot for Joe Jeannette but willfully faked an attempt at gaining a title fight for Joe Jeannette????


Great logic there, buddy.


Oh, and by the way. What's this about Softening who up? Do you think I DM'ed you to soften you up? LMAO. And do you think I responded to Willie's DM and softened him up????


We can release all of those DM's if everyone involved agrees to it. No problem with me. You know why I DM'ed you. It was to share a laugh about a huge blunder that you made which I promised to keep to myself. If you want me to go back on that offer, it's certainly fine with me!!!!

[GhostofDempsey]

Go ahead and attack him because he doesn't agree with you. Good call.

Last I checked, mcKetrick wasn't the promoter.



False. Everyone thought the ban on Jack Johnson was against fighting white boxers. They assumed he would be allowed to fight Joe Jeannette, especially because the commission didn't mention anything when MSG was trying to get Johnson vs. Jeannette. After this fight was made, there was no word by the commission until they met up, called the promoters in, and then decided not to allow the fight.

If you would actually read any of the things I've posted instead of ducking them, you would have known this already.



Really?

Then post your source that specifically says the 1912 fight would not be for the title.

I've only asked a million times.


And do you realize that your line of defense has become McKetrick was chasing Jack Johnson for a title shot for Joe Jeannette but willfully faked an attempt at gaining a title fight for Joe Jeannette????


Great logic there, buddy.


Oh, and by the way. What's this about Softening who up? Do you think I DM'ed you to soften you up? LMAO. And do you think I responded to Willie's DM and softened him up????


We can release all of those DM's if everyone involved agrees to it. No problem with me. You know why I DM'ed you. It was to share a laugh about a huge blunder that you made which I promised to keep to myself. If you want me to go back on that offer, it's certainly fine with me!!!!

What part of "I will not allow Jack Johnson to fight in NY against ANYONE" is unclear to you? Don't try to make excuses for managers and promoters by saying they thought it only pertained to white fighters. The language by the commission was clear as a bell....ANYONE! Geez you are dense.

Your source stating it was an exhibition and that Jeannette was already a the champion disqualifies it as a valid source, yet you continue to drag that silly article out as proof you are right. It is not. You are either too dumb or too stubborn to accept fact from fiction. NY Commission says Johnson will not be allowed to fight ANYONE (that would include white or black) and you think there were exceptions. That is very concise wording by the commission in January 1912, nothing ambiguous about it.

[travestyny]

What part of "I will not allow Jack Johnson to fight in NY against ANYONE" is unclear to you? Don't try to make excuses for managers and promoters by saying they thought it only pertained to white fighters. The language by the commission was clear as a bell....ANYONE! Geez you are dense.

What part of two promoters fighting over signing him to fight in NY don't you understand?

What part of the commission not objecting when MSG was bidding for the fight don't you understand?

What part of IT MAKES NO SENSE THAT PROMOTERS WOULD POST FORFEITS (that you claimed were fake but now you realize they weren't, right) FOR A FIGHT THAT THEY KNEW WOULDN'T COME OFF. IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR JOE JEANNETTE'S MANAGER TO CHASE JOHNSON FOR A FIGHT THAT HE KNEW WOULDN'T COME OFF."

And what part are you not understanding with the commission having to meet more than once to get the issue sorted on whether they would allow the fight or not (or rather, how they would go about nixing it).

"Geez, you are Dense."

Your source stating it was an exhibition and that Jeannette was already a the champion disqualifies it as a valid source, yet you continue to drag that silly article out as proof you are right. It is not. You are either too dumb or too stubborn to accept fact from fiction. NY Commission says Johnson will not be allowed to fight ANYONE (that would include white or black) and you think there were exceptions. That is very concise wording by the commission in January 1912, nothing ambiguous about it.

LMAO. No one believes your bullshlt. Let's be real.

Your attempt to deflect with this McKetrick stuff is embarrassing.

I've told you. What about the promoter who revealed it was for the championship before McKetrick? Lying too?

You never answered, as per usual

[GhostofDempsey]

What part of two promoters fighting over signing him to fight in NY don't you understand?

What part of the commission not objecting when MSG was bidding for the fight don't you understand?

What part of IT MAKES NO SENSE THAT PROMOTERS WOULD POST FORFEITS (that you claimed were fake but now you realize they weren't, right) FOR A FIGHT THAT THEY KNEW WOULDN'T COME OFF. IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR JOE JEANNETTE'S MANAGER TO CHASE JOHNSON FOR A FIGHT THAT HE KNEW WOULDN'T COME OFF."

And what part are you not understanding with the commission having to meet more than once to get the issue sorted on whether they would allow the fight or not (or rather, how they would go about nixing it).

"Geez, you are Dense."



LMAO. No one believes your bullshlt. Let's be real.

Your attempt to deflect with this McKetrick stuff is embarrassing.

I've told you. What about the promoter who revealed it was for the championship before McKetrick? Lying too?

You never answered, as per usual

More deflection and gaslighting. Repeating unfounded claims and half-truths doesn't make it truth. As I've said more times than I can remember, anonymous news articles aren't cutting it. The NY Commission was quite clear about Johnson being banned from fighting in NY.

So you believe anything that McKetrick claims yet you call Jeannette a liar. You've aligned your argument with a shady fight manager in order to "win" at the cost of these four fighters by calling all of them liars. Nice.

You have not and cannot prove that Johnson gave them legit title shots. All of your foot-stomping and deflection and ignoring historical facts won't change that. Nor will calling in other members for back-up and support.

[travestyny]

More deflection and gaslighting. Repeating unfounded claims and half-truths doesn't make it truth. As I've said more times than I can remember, anonymous news articles aren't cutting it. The NY Commission was quite clear about Johnson being banned from fighting in NY.

Oh really, were they? I guess you should read some of these anonymous articles.

Here is the commissioner letting it be known that he was aware of the offer and declining to answer whether the old rule against Jack would apply.

Commissioner O'Neil sat at the ringside at the St. Nicholas Rink last night and was aware of the matchmaking, but declined to say whether or not the commission's old ruling against Johnson would become operative now.

"I have nothing to say on the subject at this time," was all theCommissioner would say. In view of the fact that Mr. O'Neil voiced no loud objections to the proposed match when Billy Gibson tried to get Johnson to box at the Garden, the McMahon boys feel that he wasn't object to the holding it at their club.

And why was the bout "up in the air" when the commission delayed their decision if it was already settled, hmmm?

Johnson- Jeannette Match in Air

The state athletic commission today further delayed action regarding the proposed bout between Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette booked for September 25th, the meeting of the commissioners being again put over. The regular weekly meeting is due tomorrow and fight enthusiasts are hoping that the commissioners then will make known their decision.

Let me guess....it was planted by McKetrick? lol. Can you explain?

So you believe anything that McKetrick claims yet you call Jeannette a liar. You've aligned your argument with a shady fight manager in order to "win" at the cost of these four fighters by calling all of them liars. Nice.

What? I asked you about the promoters and you are still talking about mcKetrick. Give it up

You have not and cannot prove that Johnson gave them legit title shots. All of your foot-stomping and deflection and ignoring historical facts won't change that.

If I hadn't proven my point, you wouldn't be still responding trying to change course of your sunken ship. We both know what has taken place here, and it isn't even close.


You've denied retirements, forfeits, etc. but time and again I come back with more sources and you come back with nothing. Your whole "don't believe what you read while I believe what I read" routine is pretty lame. My sources are very specific to the point. You're all over the place in desperation.

[travestyny]

"I will not allow Johnson to box in the state against anyone, I have come to the conclusion it is against public policy and expediency to have Johnson box here.This is final." Boxing Commissioner Frank O' Neill."

By the way, can you post up the source for this.

I hope it's not a newspaper. That would make things a bit murky for you, wouldn't it?

Where did you get it from?